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these are the drums Hashanah and if you

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find yourself falling into a trance well

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that's the whole idea because for the

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auction people of far eastern Siberia

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everything is alive with spirit and no

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one has studied the olcha more than our

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guest today Jan and Isis town she's

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written the beautiful five hundred page

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book called spirits from the edge of the

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world it's all about the Altai and their

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amazing ability to channel spirits and

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mind-blowing ways such as this how are

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these people able to be the way they are

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in the world you're in a house with them

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and things start flying around cups and

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saucers that will fly around in the

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house or lights get exploded you're out

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with them in nature and things start to

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happen

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you know they animals wild animals come

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up to you or you're downstairs in a

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sealed room and and they're talking

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about the north wind and everything is

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sealed and locked and suddenly there's a

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wind in the middle of the room I don't

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know how I'm still in the house that day

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so of course the natural question for

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Jan okay well then where's your [\h__\h]

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iPhone where's your iPhone ulti I'm

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being crude but you get the point if

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it's about going to these extended

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realms to make your life better or to

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help your people or to help them pass to

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this journey to the next

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to the underworld or to avoid negative

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people well then yeah I'm doing the same

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thing I do it on my iPhone where's your

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iPhone stick around for a great chat

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with a great guest my new friend Jan van

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ISIL Stein who's written a terrific book

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and isn't afraid to stand up to tough

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questioning that drives at the bigger

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questions the deeper questions of

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shamanism and how it connects with this

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extended consciousness that we keep

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running into all that and so so much

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[Music]

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today we welcome Jan ven isil's dying to

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sceptical Jan has written a very

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impressive new book titled spirits from

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the edge of the world and she's here to

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join me in a conversation about

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shamanism and all sorts of related good

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stuff

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Jan we're doing a take to of this

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interview we did a little audio change

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here but thanks again so much for

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joining me on skeptic oh thank you so

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very much it's a pleasure to be here so

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this is a repeat but we're gonna try and

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get right back into it because we

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started a few minutes ago now we're

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doing the audio again this is a really

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interesting topic and you were so

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generous to contact me and you've

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listened to the show skeptical so you

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know what it's a little bit about and

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you said Alex I think we should talk

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about this amazing work I've done with

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these group of people these native

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people in this remote area of Siberia

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and they're the Ulchi people and as we

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were just chatting on a limited ago they

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are really the original shamanistic

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culture that is where the name the

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origin of the word shamanism comes from

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is these in the surrounding culture

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right correct yes so you've done this

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incredible deep dive into their work and

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I have to tell people that the book is

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really great very well-written nicely

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compiled and then I go to your website

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it's absolutely beautiful you have these

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beautiful infographics with all these

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teachers from the tribe and you have

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them laid out and their lineage and you

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have some great audio and video that

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you've collected so I guess the place to

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start again is to give folks a sense of

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how you came to study these people and

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what was the process like and you just

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told me it's taken you a number of years

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you've had these folks come and visit

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you for over ten years and you've

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learned their language and tell us the

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whole story if you would okay this

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all of the Soviet empire people are in

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Russia are allowed to have their own

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passports a gentleman named Victor

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Bondarenko who had lived in that area

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his whole life comes to the United

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States I owned a bookstore and gallery

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at that time he comes into my bookstore

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he wants to give a lecture for three

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nights on these people that he has

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worked with and he talked to me a little

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bit about it and I thought okay I never

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heard of these people

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okay sure Victor will set up a forum for

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you he comes into my bookstore and for

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three nights he talks about these

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cultures and I am just elated I'm

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gobsmacked I'm thinking who are these

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people these are amazing the old Qing

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okay the ulti and and also the Nanai

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people he he worked with both cultures

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so I asked Victor I said hey Victor when

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you go back home would you see if the

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people themselves would be interested in

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coming to the United States they had

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never left their villages I mean I mean

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again explain Jan because we were just

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chatting two minute ago this is a remote

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remote remote area kind of off the

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Korean Peninsula close to the Korean

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Peninsula if we want to give people a

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geographical sense I actually even

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further north across from Sakhalin

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Island close to the Hokkaido which is

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the northernmost Island Japan chain so

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there that farm yeah yeah right right I

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was just trying to reference it in a way

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that people right understand but no III

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appreciate what you're saying so he's

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giving this lecture what was his what

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had he done with these people why was he

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interested in him and then why were you

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interested in this were you interested

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in shamanism were you interested in you

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know kind of these kind of practices

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from a from applying them standpoint

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what what drew you in well he he was he

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is a trained musician and he was going

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up and down more River region he fell in

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love with the people and he started acts

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because they don't have a written

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language he started recording their

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ancient melodies and their and their

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ancient songs and writing them down so

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they wouldn't be lost and so that was

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his connection to them and then when he

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came here and he talked about these

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remarkable people I just thought if if

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we could get them here to the United

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States it would be an amazing event for

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for people to come and really meet these

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people and see them and learn from them

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I had no interest in shamanism before he

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came to my book store and so after that

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happened they started coming to the

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United States for 25 years sometimes two

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and three times a year to give lectures

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and talk to people what was that like at

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the beginning and what would they come

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and talk about their culture what they

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believed in they would come and talk

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about if people asked he'd they would

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talk to them about ETS

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they would talk to them about their

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ancient petroglyphs the rock art they

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would talk to them about how they

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perceive reality what shamanism is and

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what shamanism isn't especially when

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they came to be introduced to the way

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shamanism is being portrayed especially

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here in the West and so they just came

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and answered people's questions they

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never actually you know they these

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people never stand up at a podium and

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give a lecture they just will arrive in

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a place and they'll say okay what do you

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want to ask and that was hard

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initially for Western audiences because

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Western audiences are used to going in

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and having their little notepad or their

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their little recorder on and waiting for

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the lecture to happen and be very

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passive but it wasn't a monologue on

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their part it was a dialogue with with

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people so you had to ask questions and

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they would answer the best they could so

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your

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book is a compilation of all the things

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that you learned what are some of the

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highlights you just teased a couple of

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great things that you know I'm gonna ask

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you about the et thing but let's start

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with the the shaman thing since you just

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mentioned it what did they feel a need

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to clear up in terms of what Westerners

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think about shamanism versus what they

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think about shop what what is their

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understanding of their practice their

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shamanistic practice but it's not even

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for them it's not even a practice it's

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something that's natural it's something

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they're it's not about techniques it has

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nothing to do with techniques okay but

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it is about I mean one very early on in

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the book and this is interesting visa

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vie what you just said is there's this

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hidden knowledge there's this secret

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knowledge that is only passed on like

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right at the beginning of the book you

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say you know the grandmother whatever

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says hey I learned it in ten years I

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thought I knew something but I didn't

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really know anything and then 20 years

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later you know right when they're about

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to die they go okay kid come on in now

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I'll tell you the real story right so

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there is you know it's a way of life but

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it's also like hey everyone knows this

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but let me tell you what's really going

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on things you know

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well I you know first of all there's no

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shaman school so they believe that the

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only way the skill or the art is given

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to you if it's by the spirits you don't

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go to a teacher now if there are elders

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shamans around there are people that

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have been doing the art for a long long

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long time you go to them as colleagues

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if you if you get confused or you are

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having some events happening to you

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while you're in the other world they

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might give you a few hints they might

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give you some ideas how to correct that

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but they always say you ultimately need

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to listen to your spirits your spirits

241
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will teach you so there's first of all

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there is no school and

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the very end of shamans life when

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they're willing to pass on some

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information to a colleague say that is

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still alive or maybe halfway in in their

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developmental stage of the work you know

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I haven't I have no idea I have no idea

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what they what they pass on I I think

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they leave you with more questions than

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answers

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you know they what they'll do is they'll

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give you perhaps a map of the territory

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but once again will as we all well know

255
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the map is not the territory you have to

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go and explore it yourself

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so so look at they'll give you some

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hints and some ideas and let's try this

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out and try that out you might look for

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this and when you see that and and

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that's that so again let's frame this up

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from big picture stamp okay they are

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connecting with this extended

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consciousness world this world of the

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spirits right well yes they they believe

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that reality is relational and it all

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goes back to their idea of the guest

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host relationship or what they call in

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Greek musi Nia but you find the guest

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host idea in many cultures they believe

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first of all that we're not outside of

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nature they believe that we're always in

273
00:13:44,850 --> 00:13:41,769
direct conversation with spirits or

274
00:13:48,230 --> 00:13:44,860
other things that are surrounding us the

275
00:13:52,049 --> 00:13:48,240
consciousness is like a big radio dial

276
00:13:55,230 --> 00:13:52,059
okay and you've got the baseball station

277
00:13:57,119 --> 00:13:55,240
here and you've got the NPR station here

278
00:13:59,509 --> 00:13:57,129
and you've got the classical station

279
00:14:03,480 --> 00:13:59,519
here and it's all going on

280
00:14:05,759 --> 00:14:03,490
simultaneously but it's all relational

281
00:14:09,809 --> 00:14:05,769
it's like you're you're just sort of

282
00:14:12,449 --> 00:14:09,819
tuning in to different frequencies of

283
00:14:15,329 --> 00:14:12,459
consciousness let me just give you an

284
00:14:16,050 --> 00:14:15,339
interesting example intuition they do

285
00:14:19,740 --> 00:14:16,060
not

286
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:19,750
that people have intuition in the way

287
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:22,330
that the West thinks of intuition they

288
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:24,730
don't believe that it's self generated

289
00:14:29,070 --> 00:14:27,130
so if you're sitting around and you're

290
00:14:32,250 --> 00:14:29,080
thinking of your mom or you're thinking

291
00:14:34,290 --> 00:14:32,260
of your cousin or a friend and the phone

292
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:34,300
rings and it's that person on the other

293
00:14:39,390 --> 00:14:37,090
end of the phone in the West they would

294
00:14:41,370 --> 00:14:39,400
possibly describe that oh you have you

295
00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:41,380
had an intuition that that person was

296
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:44,320
going to call you they would say oh no

297
00:14:48,990 --> 00:14:46,690
no that it doesn't work that way they

298
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:49,000
would say your spirits came to you and

299
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:51,730
said hey your your your mom's just about

300
00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:54,370
to call you so get ready so it's all

301
00:15:01,170 --> 00:14:57,810
relational you intuition is not a

302
00:15:03,630 --> 00:15:01,180
self-generated process but it's always

303
00:15:04,190 --> 00:15:03,640
in direct conversation with something

304
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:04,200
else

305
00:15:09,780 --> 00:15:08,650
so that really gets to the big question

306
00:15:11,370 --> 00:15:09,790
that I have in the main thing that I

307
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:11,380
wanted to talk about because I don't

308
00:15:15,990 --> 00:15:12,970
care about the LG I'm never gonna meet

309
00:15:19,110 --> 00:15:16,000
the LG and I care only in the sense of

310
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:19,120
what they can inform in terms of all my

311
00:15:26,010 --> 00:15:21,130
other kind of things and all these

312
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:26,020
competing ideas we have about this

313
00:15:32,130 --> 00:15:29,770
extended consciousness reality right so

314
00:15:35,070 --> 00:15:32,140
the ult's you say one thing the indie

315
00:15:37,710 --> 00:15:35,080
ears say another thing the et says

316
00:15:39,900 --> 00:15:37,720
another thing the astral travelers say

317
00:15:43,290 --> 00:15:39,910
another thing I mean are we looking at

318
00:15:45,060 --> 00:15:43,300
just a different cultural overlay you

319
00:15:48,390 --> 00:15:45,070
know it's the map versus the territory

320
00:15:53,460 --> 00:15:48,400
thing how do we figure that out well I I

321
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:53,470
don't think so my concern my concern

322
00:15:58,380 --> 00:15:55,810
with a lot of people that go

323
00:16:00,390 --> 00:15:58,390
specifically into this field is that

324
00:16:02,790 --> 00:16:00,400
they go you know they don't gather up

325
00:16:04,860 --> 00:16:02,800
all this data and they come back and

326
00:16:07,820 --> 00:16:04,870
they translate what they think that

327
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:07,830
they've observed from a very mechanistic

328
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:11,490
linear reductionistic Western approach

329
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:15,130
okay I and I think that's kind of

330
00:16:20,190 --> 00:16:16,770
putting the cart before the horse

331
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:20,200
personally to really understand another

332
00:16:25,020 --> 00:16:22,240
culture you have to liberate yourself

333
00:16:27,810 --> 00:16:25,030
from your own culture as best as

334
00:16:28,420 --> 00:16:27,820
possible and you have to go into another

335
00:16:31,780 --> 00:16:28,430
culture

336
00:16:33,970 --> 00:16:31,790
and know that you know nothing you you

337
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:33,980
know you know nothing Jon Snow right

338
00:16:41,460 --> 00:16:38,770
you're completely ignorant you need to

339
00:16:44,350 --> 00:16:41,470
learn to think in a different way

340
00:16:45,850 --> 00:16:44,360
why I mean let me channel let me

341
00:16:47,980 --> 00:16:45,860
challenge that in a skeptical kind of

342
00:16:52,060 --> 00:16:47,990
way I mean this is kind of the shutup

343
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:52,070
and calculate model alternative right so

344
00:16:57,550 --> 00:16:54,530
the shut up and calculate Western model

345
00:17:01,300 --> 00:16:57,560
is screw that no I'm just gonna go plow

346
00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:01,310
ahead with my way of trying to mechanize

347
00:17:07,810 --> 00:17:04,610
it trying to operationalize it trying to

348
00:17:11,020 --> 00:17:07,820
make it work so I don't really care

349
00:17:14,770 --> 00:17:11,030
about your culture show me an show me an

350
00:17:17,350 --> 00:17:14,780
iPhone right or in this case you know to

351
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:17,360
connect it with the skeptical thing I'm

352
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:20,690
the United States intelligence and I say

353
00:17:25,660 --> 00:17:23,930
go get me Andre Padraic go bring uri

354
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:25,670
geller over here and he seems to know a

355
00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:27,410
bunch of this stuff and bring him to

356
00:17:31,150 --> 00:17:29,510
stanford research institute and we're

357
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:31,160
gonna talk him in because you know kind

358
00:17:37,060 --> 00:17:33,770
of you've used a long time ago past life

359
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:37,070
or former life you were in that world so

360
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:39,770
let's bring a let's bring Uri Geller

361
00:17:42,790 --> 00:17:41,330
over here and he seems to be able to

362
00:17:44,530 --> 00:17:42,800
read minds he seems to be able to do

363
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:44,540
this let's make it happen

364
00:17:48,550 --> 00:17:46,370
let's remote-viewing let's figure out

365
00:17:50,020 --> 00:17:48,560
how to operationalize that i don't care

366
00:17:52,090 --> 00:17:50,030
about the old [\h__\h] I only care about

367
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:52,100
what they can do and I only care about

368
00:17:58,780 --> 00:17:55,850
if I can turn it into a product yes yes

369
00:18:01,420 --> 00:17:58,790
that that's that's yeah that's an

370
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:01,430
interesting an interesting take on

371
00:18:08,860 --> 00:18:04,490
things and my point is where does that

372
00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:08,870
get us as opposed to where does it get

373
00:18:14,530 --> 00:18:12,110
us from taking an anthropological let's

374
00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:14,540
value their culture let's do all the

375
00:18:19,030 --> 00:18:16,910
rest of that I mean I'm not saying one

376
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:19,040
versus the other I'm just saying let's

377
00:18:23,260 --> 00:18:20,570
not prejudice one versus the other

378
00:18:24,790 --> 00:18:23,270
because at the end of the day a lot of

379
00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:24,800
times what it really comes down to is

380
00:18:30,850 --> 00:18:28,310
what we want is just the goods anyway I

381
00:18:32,980 --> 00:18:30,860
mean the whole magic thing and the

382
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:32,990
interest people have in chaos magic

383
00:18:37,450 --> 00:18:35,210
which is in some ways related to this is

384
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:37,460
I want to get the spirits to do [\h__\h] for

385
00:18:42,159 --> 00:18:40,010
me here in this world that's what a lot

386
00:18:45,249 --> 00:18:42,169
of people that's that's a Lynette

387
00:18:48,009 --> 00:18:45,259
take away and III think we need to have

388
00:18:50,409 --> 00:18:48,019
a reasonable counter to that in terms of

389
00:18:52,419 --> 00:18:50,419
saying well here is why you would might

390
00:18:56,859 --> 00:18:52,429
want to do that here's why you might not

391
00:18:59,970 --> 00:18:56,869
want to do that okay yeah I I agree I

392
00:19:03,970 --> 00:18:59,980
think it's now I wouldn't say that

393
00:19:08,529 --> 00:19:03,980
research in the West doesn't conform to

394
00:19:13,570 --> 00:19:08,539
the ultra-reality construct and there

395
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:13,580
are and I've studied a lot of the Robert

396
00:19:18,849 --> 00:19:16,850
Monroe's work right fits fits hand in

397
00:19:22,389 --> 00:19:18,859
glove with what the OL cheese believe

398
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:22,399
reality is about the oh please believe

399
00:19:27,970 --> 00:19:26,330
in multiple souls there they have a very

400
00:19:31,169 --> 00:19:27,980
different view everything about

401
00:19:34,570 --> 00:19:31,179
shamanism in the West by neo shaman that

402
00:19:36,999 --> 00:19:34,580
shamaness seems to be interpreted from

403
00:19:39,369 --> 00:19:37,009
the very judeo-christian standpoint

404
00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:39,379
okay what do you mean by that well they

405
00:19:43,299 --> 00:19:41,600
only stop about the singular soul and

406
00:19:48,340 --> 00:19:43,309
then they talk about this thing called

407
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:48,350
soul retrieval which doesn't exist I you

408
00:19:52,869 --> 00:19:50,090
know I don't mean to offend anyone but

409
00:19:56,139 --> 00:19:52,879
it doesn't exist in shamanism what is

410
00:19:58,659 --> 00:19:56,149
full retrieval mean all that that in the

411
00:20:02,849 --> 00:19:58,669
West they believe that if you have some

412
00:20:06,070 --> 00:20:02,859
sort of trauma that some part of the

413
00:20:09,190 --> 00:20:06,080
personality this psychological

414
00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:09,200
personality is wounded and goes missing

415
00:20:17,229 --> 00:20:13,039
and causes all sorts of dysphoric states

416
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:17,239
in your being so shamans go and find

417
00:20:24,279 --> 00:20:20,330
that particular piece that very

418
00:20:27,159 --> 00:20:24,289
mechanized view of grabbing some piece

419
00:20:31,029 --> 00:20:27,169
of yourself that's gone missing and they

420
00:20:33,970 --> 00:20:31,039
bring it back and they reattach it to

421
00:20:36,639 --> 00:20:33,980
your being and everything is hunky-dory

422
00:20:38,379 --> 00:20:36,649
but again that if we go down that path

423
00:20:41,310 --> 00:20:38,389
and I don't know how far we want to go

424
00:20:45,369 --> 00:20:41,320
down it don't we run into the same

425
00:20:48,580 --> 00:20:45,379
problems of language culture you know

426
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:48,590
young in psychoanalysis that on one hand

427
00:20:53,950 --> 00:20:50,570
is total [\h__\h] and on the other hand

428
00:20:56,170 --> 00:20:53,960
is provably effective for people in

429
00:21:00,550 --> 00:20:56,180
terms of overcoming trauma

430
00:21:03,670 --> 00:21:00,560
so if i if I'm able to make you feel

431
00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:03,680
more whole whatever that means to you

432
00:21:10,660 --> 00:21:07,130
then do you really care whether I called

433
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:10,670
it soul retrieval or whether I called it

434
00:21:17,950 --> 00:21:14,650
you know post-traumatic stress disorder

435
00:21:20,050 --> 00:21:17,960
correction or whatever I mean does the

436
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:20,060
language sometimes get in the way of

437
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:22,010
something that is so much more complex

438
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:23,840
than we could possibly understand that

439
00:21:28,570 --> 00:21:25,970
well I don't know if it's more complex I

440
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:28,580
just think it's very inaccurate so then

441
00:21:33,010 --> 00:21:30,290
let's talk about that specifically how

442
00:21:34,930 --> 00:21:33,020
we would know what's more accurate I am

443
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:34,940
only here to tell you what these people

444
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:38,810
told me and I think that by being with

445
00:21:42,970 --> 00:21:41,450
them for almost three decades learning

446
00:21:47,490 --> 00:21:42,980
their language and the languages

447
00:21:50,890 --> 00:21:47,500
everything that I can come back and

448
00:21:53,350 --> 00:21:50,900
translate that back to my Western

449
00:21:57,970 --> 00:21:53,360
culture in a way that most Westerners

450
00:22:00,910 --> 00:21:57,980
can't great I guess I can say okay what

451
00:22:05,770 --> 00:22:00,920
does exist in the medical literature and

452
00:22:08,290 --> 00:22:05,780
in the psychology literature and and all

453
00:22:11,350 --> 00:22:08,300
sorts of other literature that's out

454
00:22:14,890 --> 00:22:11,360
there that corresponds to what these

455
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:14,900
people say Robert Monroe's idea of this

456
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:19,250
this the second body corresponds hand in

457
00:22:25,660 --> 00:22:21,490
glove with what the old to say our

458
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:25,670
beingness is all about everybody working

459
00:22:33,820 --> 00:22:28,850
in the lucid dream community that also

460
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:33,830
corresponds to what the Ulchi say is a

461
00:22:38,860 --> 00:22:36,770
true shamanic journey so how

462
00:22:41,980 --> 00:22:38,870
specifically does it connect with

463
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:41,990
Monroe's second body and how

464
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:44,090
specifically does it connect with the

465
00:22:50,470 --> 00:22:47,930
lucid dreaming astral travel kind of

466
00:22:53,650 --> 00:22:50,480
okay understanding a Robert Monroe

467
00:22:56,220 --> 00:22:53,660
talked a great deal about what he called

468
00:22:59,680 --> 00:22:56,230
the second body and that the second body

469
00:23:02,740 --> 00:22:59,690
had attended the way when he talked

470
00:23:05,110 --> 00:23:02,750
about he had he had his own designations

471
00:23:07,820 --> 00:23:05,120
but he would talk about low growl these

472
00:23:10,370 --> 00:23:07,830
crazy rooms room this room yeah

473
00:23:12,140 --> 00:23:10,380
and locale one but I I understood what

474
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:12,150
he was trying to get at us for Robert

475
00:23:16,940 --> 00:23:14,730
Monroe I mean the poor man if you really

476
00:23:19,790 --> 00:23:16,950
read his his whole history you just feel

477
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:19,800
feel for him just he had no idea what

478
00:23:24,470 --> 00:23:22,290
any of this stuff was about but good for

479
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:24,480
him that he did its best to try to

480
00:23:32,150 --> 00:23:28,770
document these experiences so the second

481
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:32,160
body when it's in this particular state

482
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:35,250
or will say vibrational frequency of

483
00:23:43,220 --> 00:23:39,330
consciousness whatever is something that

484
00:23:44,780 --> 00:23:43,230
is on the earth and that you can go

485
00:23:47,420 --> 00:23:44,790
around and you could be in your house

486
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:47,430
and you can go visit other people and

487
00:23:52,300 --> 00:23:49,290
you can do this and you can do that and

488
00:23:56,300 --> 00:23:52,310
you can actually have conversations with

489
00:23:59,600 --> 00:23:56,310
other people that you that are actually

490
00:24:01,070 --> 00:23:59,610
alive on this earth and but you will

491
00:24:02,810 --> 00:24:01,080
remember but they're not going to

492
00:24:04,190 --> 00:24:02,820
remember it okay

493
00:24:07,310 --> 00:24:04,200
this is this is something interesting

494
00:24:11,030 --> 00:24:07,320
that that the Ulchi say is true in

495
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:11,040
Israel and that is that this second soul

496
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:15,810
this or or the second body your astral

497
00:24:19,790 --> 00:24:17,250
body so it's the same thing as this

498
00:24:22,340 --> 00:24:19,800
astral body you go to sleep at night you

499
00:24:23,870 --> 00:24:22,350
you're in this astral realm and then if

500
00:24:25,490 --> 00:24:23,880
you loose a dream you're in this astral

501
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:25,500
realm and then a further extension of it

502
00:24:29,330 --> 00:24:27,690
is you actually leave your body you're

503
00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:29,340
outside your body you're looking down on

504
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:32,370
your butt okay yeah and I'm just saying

505
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:35,610
these two aspects of Robert Monroe's

506
00:24:39,290 --> 00:24:38,610
research it's like yeah they say that's

507
00:24:42,140 --> 00:24:39,300
normal

508
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:42,150
yes and and everything that they speak

509
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:45,330
about or talk about conform to those

510
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:48,690
same exact ideas that Robert Monroe set

511
00:24:55,790 --> 00:24:52,890
forth many years ago the lucid dreaming

512
00:24:58,190 --> 00:24:55,800
community and Stephen Laberge out of

513
00:25:00,140 --> 00:24:58,200
well I don't know he's not the Stanford

514
00:25:04,310 --> 00:25:00,150
anymore but he used to be there I think

515
00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:04,320
he's retired or something he you know

516
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:06,000
his research

517
00:25:12,170 --> 00:25:08,970
Robert Wagner's research at Kellogg's

518
00:25:15,590 --> 00:25:12,180
research they you know they speak a

519
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:15,600
great deal about this other realm well

520
00:25:21,710 --> 00:25:18,330
that is what an actual shamanic journey

521
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:21,720
is if everything that I can

522
00:25:26,750 --> 00:25:24,450
termen from what I've learned from these

523
00:25:32,090 --> 00:25:26,760
people and how they've explained things

524
00:25:34,670 --> 00:25:32,100
to me is that a shamanic journey has

525
00:25:38,270 --> 00:25:34,680
nothing to do with going into some sort

526
00:25:40,670 --> 00:25:38,280
of meditative state what do you mean by

527
00:25:42,950 --> 00:25:40,680
that well people sit around and they go

528
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:42,960
boom boom boom on their drum and they

529
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:45,330
enter you know and if you put machines

530
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:48,330
and wires on their head I mean they will

531
00:25:53,570 --> 00:25:51,330
enter into some sort of calmer

532
00:25:58,120 --> 00:25:53,580
alpha-theta state that's something that

533
00:26:01,250 --> 00:25:58,130
can be mechanically observed by

534
00:26:03,470 --> 00:26:01,260
researchers that you kind of drift down

535
00:26:07,130 --> 00:26:03,480
into a different state of consciousness

536
00:26:09,470 --> 00:26:07,140
well everything that they have told me

537
00:26:13,460 --> 00:26:09,480
corresponds more of the fact that a

538
00:26:17,290 --> 00:26:13,470
traditional shamanic journey is first of

539
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:17,300
all being able to enter through the

540
00:26:23,270 --> 00:26:21,090
hypnagogic state now we all go through

541
00:26:25,190 --> 00:26:23,280
the hypnagogic state every night in the

542
00:26:28,730 --> 00:26:25,200
West in medical literature they call

543
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:28,740
that a hypnagogic hallucination but we

544
00:26:35,180 --> 00:26:32,010
all we all drift off and if we are able

545
00:26:37,940 --> 00:26:35,190
to keep our consciousness somewhat

546
00:26:41,060 --> 00:26:37,950
active we'll start seeing faces and

547
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:41,070
images and geometric patterns everybody

548
00:26:47,540 --> 00:26:43,440
does that it's natural you don't need to

549
00:26:50,270 --> 00:26:47,550
teach that so they they enter through

550
00:26:55,460 --> 00:26:50,280
that realm of frequency or consciousness

551
00:26:59,090 --> 00:26:55,470
then they are able to launch into what I

552
00:27:04,190 --> 00:26:59,100
think from what I what they've told me

553
00:27:08,060 --> 00:27:04,200
and what I understand is a wake induced

554
00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:08,070
lucid dream but they're able to shut off

555
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:11,520
the muscle atonia

556
00:27:17,870 --> 00:27:14,880
that occurs with everyone at night and

557
00:27:20,990 --> 00:27:17,880
do you under you get the sleeper out

558
00:27:25,730 --> 00:27:21,000
okay now what I find to be very curious

559
00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:25,740
is that in the medical literature in the

560
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:29,310
sleep parasomnias there is a condition

561
00:27:35,700 --> 00:27:30,850
known as

562
00:27:39,570 --> 00:27:35,710
REM sleep behavior disorder where people

563
00:27:42,539 --> 00:27:39,580
go into the state and they get up and

564
00:27:44,340 --> 00:27:42,549
move right and they're running around

565
00:27:46,350 --> 00:27:44,350
and they're moving in there and they're

566
00:27:48,990 --> 00:27:46,360
doing things and sometimes they're

567
00:27:52,259 --> 00:27:49,000
hitting their partner and which is not

568
00:27:55,110 --> 00:27:52,269
good and all sorts of things occur and

569
00:27:57,180 --> 00:27:55,120
that if you wake them up they're able to

570
00:28:01,200 --> 00:27:57,190
recall everything that they've done so

571
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:01,210
my understanding is that that's that's

572
00:28:05,669 --> 00:28:03,730
what a shamanic journey is and not

573
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:05,679
everything that's being taught out there

574
00:28:13,289 --> 00:28:09,570
you enter through him through a

575
00:28:16,889 --> 00:28:13,299
hypnagogic state you you're able to

576
00:28:20,249 --> 00:28:16,899
control wake induced lucid dreaming to a

577
00:28:22,889 --> 00:28:20,259
point or the the REM sleep behavior

578
00:28:25,769 --> 00:28:22,899
disorder and you come out through the

579
00:28:27,539 --> 00:28:25,779
hypnopompic state interesting the other

580
00:28:29,909 --> 00:28:27,549
interesting thing about this medically

581
00:28:33,590 --> 00:28:29,919
Alex when you look at the medical

582
00:28:37,730 --> 00:28:33,600
evidence on REM sleep behavior disorder

583
00:28:42,389 --> 00:28:37,740
first of all it can occur in children

584
00:28:45,149 --> 00:28:42,399
but most of the time it occurs it starts

585
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:45,159
the onset of it comes when people are in

586
00:28:51,210 --> 00:28:48,250
their 40s and 50s when you look at the

587
00:28:53,970 --> 00:28:51,220
ultra tradition people do not take up

588
00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:53,980
the shamanic call until they're in their

589
00:29:00,419 --> 00:28:57,970
40s and 50s and if you look at all that

590
00:29:02,519 --> 00:29:00,429
medical literature you can just go

591
00:29:06,740 --> 00:29:02,529
through and just check off everything

592
00:29:11,090 --> 00:29:06,750
one by one the types of experiences that

593
00:29:13,740 --> 00:29:11,100
the Western medical sleep researchers

594
00:29:16,529 --> 00:29:13,750
have been able to document and

595
00:29:20,129 --> 00:29:16,539
everything that goes on with this

596
00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:20,139
shamanic journeying experience okay I

597
00:29:25,769 --> 00:29:22,809
have a direction if you can't tell

598
00:29:27,419 --> 00:29:25,779
already I've tried to no no I I didn't

599
00:29:30,299 --> 00:29:27,429
mean that in in like asking for an

600
00:29:33,570 --> 00:29:30,309
apology far from it I guess what I'm

601
00:29:36,899 --> 00:29:33,580
saying is I'm driving towards something

602
00:29:39,509 --> 00:29:36,909
that I'm curious about and you're

603
00:29:41,430 --> 00:29:39,519
filling in a lot of the blanks you know

604
00:29:44,730 --> 00:29:41,440
to jump right to the end

605
00:29:47,649 --> 00:29:44,740
I guess my big picture question

606
00:29:51,759 --> 00:29:47,659
what are we looking at when we talk

607
00:29:56,139 --> 00:29:51,769
about these extended consciousness

608
00:29:58,960 --> 00:29:56,149
realms as opposed to other extended

609
00:30:02,680 --> 00:29:58,970
consciousness realms so like is this the

610
00:30:06,009 --> 00:30:02,690
same realm that et is in is this the

611
00:30:08,740 --> 00:30:06,019
same realm that NDE is in near-death

612
00:30:12,759 --> 00:30:08,750
experience is this the same realm that

613
00:30:15,490 --> 00:30:12,769
is the spirit world past life regression

614
00:30:18,279 --> 00:30:15,500
world and then most interesting to me

615
00:30:20,049 --> 00:30:18,289
because I'll tip my hand here and tell

616
00:30:22,690 --> 00:30:20,059
you that you know it's interesting what

617
00:30:26,250 --> 00:30:22,700
you said about meditation and I think my

618
00:30:28,269 --> 00:30:26,260
understanding of it is there's a real

619
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:28,279
misunderstanding because I'm a yogi guy

620
00:30:34,060 --> 00:30:31,370
right and I think there's the same kind

621
00:30:39,210 --> 00:30:34,070
of misunderstanding of what's going on

622
00:30:42,340 --> 00:30:39,220
with meditation / enlightenment /

623
00:30:45,190 --> 00:30:42,350
awakening and all that is that what I

624
00:30:47,740 --> 00:30:45,200
hear those folks saying is yada yada

625
00:30:51,879 --> 00:30:47,750
yada I'm interested in transcending all

626
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:51,889
of that stuff so what I hear the Yogi's

627
00:30:57,009 --> 00:30:53,690
say what I hear the Enlightenment people

628
00:31:00,460 --> 00:30:57,019
saying is you can go there you can go on

629
00:31:03,159 --> 00:31:00,470
your shamanic journey you can go to use

630
00:31:05,379 --> 00:31:03,169
your entheogens and you know do all this

631
00:31:08,350 --> 00:31:05,389
crazy stuff and talk to et we're

632
00:31:10,779 --> 00:31:08,360
interested in kind of jumping past that

633
00:31:13,930 --> 00:31:10,789
because that's just a another place to

634
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:13,940
get stuck with the fascination of the

635
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:16,850
mind of the mind that wants to attach to

636
00:31:20,919 --> 00:31:19,250
all these different things so I've kind

637
00:31:22,779 --> 00:31:20,929
of bundled a couple of questions there

638
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:22,789
but maybe you can pull them apart one is

639
00:31:28,930 --> 00:31:26,570
what are we to make of the limits of

640
00:31:31,470 --> 00:31:28,940
this extended consciousness realm what

641
00:31:35,649 --> 00:31:31,480
are their limits and is there a

642
00:31:40,149 --> 00:31:35,659
spirituality if you will that that kind

643
00:31:41,649 --> 00:31:40,159
of is beyond oh I'm sure there is and I

644
00:31:44,259 --> 00:31:41,659
don't think that you would have any

645
00:31:46,029 --> 00:31:44,269
indigenous people say well sure it's out

646
00:31:50,919 --> 00:31:46,039
there but we don't know about it it's so

647
00:31:54,970 --> 00:31:50,929
beyond our ability to comprehend I would

648
00:31:57,420 --> 00:31:54,980
say that the idea of going beyond as far

649
00:31:59,360 --> 00:31:57,430
as enlightenment is concerned or

650
00:32:02,610 --> 00:31:59,370
it's like oh I get stuck in these other

651
00:32:06,390 --> 00:32:02,620
levels and and be enlightened they don't

652
00:32:09,630 --> 00:32:06,400
they don't see the the purpose of human

653
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:09,640
beings having anything to do with being

654
00:32:15,780 --> 00:32:12,490
enlightened they're much more Taoist in

655
00:32:18,630 --> 00:32:15,790
their philosophy it's like it's it's

656
00:32:20,790 --> 00:32:18,640
like we're all a part of the ocean and

657
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:20,800
you're a wave and I'm a wave and

658
00:32:24,540 --> 00:32:22,810
everybody else is a wave and I'm waving

659
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:24,550
at you in the ocean you're waving at me

660
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:27,760
and it's about adjoining but it's not

661
00:32:33,780 --> 00:32:30,730
about going beyond and becoming one with

662
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:33,790
everything so they have a very as I said

663
00:32:39,390 --> 00:32:35,410
it's not about enlightenment and

664
00:32:41,670 --> 00:32:39,400
becoming one with one with God and and

665
00:32:42,990 --> 00:32:41,680
that you lose your individuality if you

666
00:32:44,970 --> 00:32:43,000
do not believe it

667
00:32:47,670 --> 00:32:44,980
okay well then where's your [\h__\h]

668
00:32:49,980 --> 00:32:47,680
iPhone where's your iPhone ulti I'm

669
00:32:52,380 --> 00:32:49,990
being crude but you get the point if

670
00:32:55,110 --> 00:32:52,390
it's about going to these extended

671
00:32:58,140 --> 00:32:55,120
realms to make your life better or to

672
00:33:00,300 --> 00:32:58,150
help your people or to help them pass to

673
00:33:03,690 --> 00:33:00,310
this journey to the next or the

674
00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:03,700
underworld or to avoid negative people

675
00:33:09,150 --> 00:33:06,880
well then I'm doing the same thing I do

676
00:33:11,790 --> 00:33:09,160
it on my iPhone where's your iPhone well

677
00:33:14,340 --> 00:33:11,800
good good for you Alex and you do it

678
00:33:18,030 --> 00:33:14,350
your own way and not me

679
00:33:20,340 --> 00:33:18,040
no I I don't mean it I don't you know

680
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:20,350
this is another thing as well when you

681
00:33:27,180 --> 00:33:24,250
start to examine you have to think like

682
00:33:30,300 --> 00:33:27,190
people from the east and people don't

683
00:33:33,930 --> 00:33:30,310
like to hear that an Eastern way of

684
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:33,940
viewing everything is that the universe

685
00:33:41,220 --> 00:33:36,970
is meaningless through and through there

686
00:33:43,020 --> 00:33:41,230
is no purpose right then I get that I

687
00:33:45,570 --> 00:33:43,030
get if you've listened to the show you

688
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:45,580
know I always reference Amma the hugging

689
00:33:50,940 --> 00:33:48,250
Saint I admire her work from one level

690
00:33:52,530 --> 00:33:50,950
you know she's just tireless in her work

691
00:33:54,030 --> 00:33:52,540
you know she's hugging thousands of

692
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:54,040
people I don't know how she does it

693
00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:56,290
she's up for you know 20 hours at a time

694
00:34:00,120 --> 00:33:58,090
just giving giving giving and then when

695
00:34:01,650 --> 00:34:00,130
you talk to her devotees they say in

696
00:34:03,030 --> 00:34:01,660
India it's even more she's out there

697
00:34:05,460 --> 00:34:03,040
digging latrines and that she's doing

698
00:34:08,430 --> 00:34:05,470
this and she's doing that and one of her

699
00:34:11,100 --> 00:34:08,440
devotees met her and said am i you tell

700
00:34:13,410 --> 00:34:11,110
us that there there is no world

701
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:13,420
that this is this whole thing is an

702
00:34:18,690 --> 00:34:16,210
illusion and yet you you working

703
00:34:23,580 --> 00:34:18,700
tirelessly to make this world a better

704
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:23,590
place and her responses world what world

705
00:34:29,190 --> 00:34:27,370
so to me that is holding both you know

706
00:34:31,350 --> 00:34:29,200
in some beautiful way that I can't

707
00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:31,360
understand because I'm not spiritually

708
00:34:36,630 --> 00:34:33,280
developed enough holding those two

709
00:34:38,430 --> 00:34:36,640
together at the same time is that one

710
00:34:41,010 --> 00:34:38,440
there is no purpose there's no place to

711
00:34:44,030 --> 00:34:41,020
get we're not we're all caught up in

712
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:44,040
doing and her about doing anything so

713
00:34:50,130 --> 00:34:47,530
but on the other hand and even in the

714
00:34:53,310 --> 00:34:50,140
all che and in your book and in you know

715
00:34:55,290 --> 00:34:53,320
there is a doing part to the spirit

716
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:55,300
thing it's not like we're leaving the

717
00:35:01,050 --> 00:34:57,610
spirits just up there were saying oh

718
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:01,060
come intercede in this help this happen

719
00:35:06,930 --> 00:35:04,090
help that help happen help this person

720
00:35:09,630 --> 00:35:06,940
in their healing or their recovery or

721
00:35:12,450 --> 00:35:09,640
their protection so that's doing too so

722
00:35:20,130 --> 00:35:12,460
it does there is kind of a mixed thing

723
00:35:22,410 --> 00:35:20,140
by they are rather well I think it might

724
00:35:24,390 --> 00:35:22,420
point to maybe a little bit more of a

725
00:35:26,850 --> 00:35:24,400
contradiction there that that we're

726
00:35:29,430 --> 00:35:26,860
willing to accept I just think it's

727
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:29,440
fascinating I don't want to get into I

728
00:35:34,890 --> 00:35:32,170
can see where Amma and she's an amazing

729
00:35:37,710 --> 00:35:34,900
person it's coming from from her from

730
00:35:40,770 --> 00:35:37,720
that Hindu background where they view

731
00:35:43,260 --> 00:35:40,780
the world as a as a play that all the

732
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:43,270
gods are at play and this is all Maya

733
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:47,530
that one way of perceiving reality you

734
00:35:52,020 --> 00:35:49,450
know indigenous people have a different

735
00:35:53,790 --> 00:35:52,030
way of perceiving reality some

736
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:53,800
indigenous sample right I mean right

737
00:35:58,530 --> 00:35:56,050
right but yeah but yeah and it's all

738
00:36:00,630 --> 00:35:58,540
quite unique and it's all very different

739
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:00,640
so where's your iPhone when I say

740
00:36:04,590 --> 00:36:02,770
where's your iPhone and I think you get

741
00:36:06,210 --> 00:36:04,600
it because you didn't come jumping

742
00:36:08,430 --> 00:36:06,220
through the scream and throws through a

743
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:08,440
screen and throw a fit like because I'm

744
00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:10,090
pushing pretty hard there and I

745
00:36:14,820 --> 00:36:11,710
appreciate that you're willing to do it

746
00:36:17,370 --> 00:36:14,830
keep pushing so back to connecting the

747
00:36:21,330 --> 00:36:17,380
dots like I was saying I go and I talk

748
00:36:24,510 --> 00:36:21,340
to a guy who's doing a film about Andre

749
00:36:27,750 --> 00:36:24,520
Padraic right so under pedrão is this

750
00:36:29,790 --> 00:36:27,760
brilliant guy he's interested in all

751
00:36:32,730 --> 00:36:29,800
these extended consciousness realms he's

752
00:36:34,530 --> 00:36:32,740
the first one to go to Mexico and look

753
00:36:37,290 --> 00:36:34,540
at the indigenous people down there who

754
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:37,300
are using sacred mushrooms who are using

755
00:36:42,180 --> 00:36:39,850
these Ephesians to do these kind of

756
00:36:43,860 --> 00:36:42,190
astral travels and they're bringing back

757
00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:43,870
all this stuff and they're also having

758
00:36:49,670 --> 00:36:45,910
psychic experiences and all the rest of

759
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:49,680
that so he's working at North he's a PhD

760
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:51,520
Northwestern University is also a

761
00:36:56,180 --> 00:36:53,530
medical doctor if you don't know the

762
00:36:59,310 --> 00:36:56,190
history Northwestern is tied into

763
00:37:01,280 --> 00:36:59,320
MKULTRA which he didn't know at the time

764
00:37:04,890 --> 00:37:01,290
but so they were interested our

765
00:37:07,650 --> 00:37:04,900
government our secret shadow government

766
00:37:09,690 --> 00:37:07,660
is interested in all this extended

767
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:09,700
consciousness stuff too or they're

768
00:37:14,670 --> 00:37:11,530
probably interested in it because in

769
00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:14,680
nineteen forty fifty they start finding

770
00:37:19,890 --> 00:37:16,510
out that et is in this extended

771
00:37:22,380 --> 00:37:19,900
consciousness realm and ETS all over the

772
00:37:26,490 --> 00:37:22,390
place and then later on they have Rick

773
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:26,500
Strassman who they allow to research DMT

774
00:37:30,450 --> 00:37:28,810
out there in New Mexico and he starts

775
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:30,460
giving it to people and they boom they

776
00:37:35,930 --> 00:37:32,530
pop into this same realm if you will and

777
00:37:39,450 --> 00:37:35,940
there's et and there's all these

778
00:37:40,590 --> 00:37:39,460
shamanistic if you will to use the more

779
00:37:44,310 --> 00:37:40,600
broad to right

780
00:37:47,310 --> 00:37:44,320
you know beings and purple jaguars and

781
00:37:48,990 --> 00:37:47,320
you know all these crocodiles half

782
00:37:51,150 --> 00:37:49,000
crocodile half-human kind of things so

783
00:37:53,820 --> 00:37:51,160
they're all there right right so more

784
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:53,830
interest on the part of our iPhone guys

785
00:37:58,320 --> 00:37:56,410
so I'm saying this is our Western kind

786
00:38:00,450 --> 00:37:58,330
of we're gonna just drill into it kind

787
00:38:01,890 --> 00:38:00,460
of thing so they were like okay great we

788
00:38:06,090 --> 00:38:01,900
got to figure this stuff out so we got

789
00:38:07,530 --> 00:38:06,100
Padraic we got Rick Strassman and oh but

790
00:38:10,020 --> 00:38:07,540
rates you know this guy in Israel

791
00:38:11,550 --> 00:38:10,030
regular great go bring him over here

792
00:38:13,830 --> 00:38:11,560
we're gonna study him he says he can

793
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:13,840
read minds well he can do it so they're

794
00:38:19,350 --> 00:38:16,810
doing the shut up and calculate build us

795
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:19,360
an iPhone helped us get into that other

796
00:38:24,270 --> 00:38:22,210
room so we can beat the Russians if

797
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:24,280
that's really the thing or we can

798
00:38:27,810 --> 00:38:26,290
control the population so that they

799
00:38:32,790 --> 00:38:27,820
don't get into that thing right there

800
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:32,800
taking a very mechanistic Western iPhone

801
00:38:38,220 --> 00:38:35,890
shut up in calculate way to reach this

802
00:38:41,190 --> 00:38:38,230
extended consciousness realm and

803
00:38:43,470 --> 00:38:41,200
I'm very interested in that because I'm

804
00:38:48,030 --> 00:38:43,480
interested in the intersection between

805
00:38:51,810 --> 00:38:48,040
that and ET seems to have mastered that

806
00:38:54,180 --> 00:38:51,820
in a more technological way where they

807
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:54,190
have tools they have devices they have

808
00:38:58,320 --> 00:38:56,290
ways of getting into this realm and the

809
00:39:00,750 --> 00:38:58,330
way it leads back to the old Shea and I

810
00:39:02,490 --> 00:39:00,760
guess my big question is when we look at

811
00:39:06,770 --> 00:39:02,500
the Ulchi when we look at these

812
00:39:10,710 --> 00:39:06,780
indigenous people are we looking at more

813
00:39:13,830 --> 00:39:10,720
advanced technology or are we looking at

814
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:13,840
less advanced technology and if we allow

815
00:39:19,530 --> 00:39:16,450
the crudeness of that question to like

816
00:39:21,660 --> 00:39:19,540
sit there for a while are we saying that

817
00:39:23,340 --> 00:39:21,670
you know well these people they figured

818
00:39:25,530 --> 00:39:23,350
some stuff out but they didn't really

819
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:25,540
know how to do it in the same way that

820
00:39:32,550 --> 00:39:28,570
they knew agriculture but to be honest

821
00:39:34,830 --> 00:39:32,560
we do agriculture a lot more effectively

822
00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:34,840
now even though we [\h__\h] up the planet

823
00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:36,730
and even though we put on all these

824
00:39:43,170 --> 00:39:39,730
crazy additives we get a hundred times

825
00:39:47,010 --> 00:39:43,180
more bushels of corn than they do so are

826
00:39:49,260 --> 00:39:47,020
we looking at a more advanced ability to

827
00:39:53,130 --> 00:39:49,270
manipulate extended consciousness or a

828
00:39:58,170 --> 00:39:53,140
less advanced way I would say that the

829
00:40:02,040 --> 00:39:58,180
olci are very elegant sophisticated form

830
00:40:07,550 --> 00:40:02,050
of primitivism I would also say that as

831
00:40:12,210 --> 00:40:07,560
far as contact with other realms that

832
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:12,220
they do talk to et's they do they just

833
00:40:18,780 --> 00:40:14,770
call them the sky people and they see

834
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:18,790
them on walking in the earth and they

835
00:40:24,330 --> 00:40:21,570
also see them in the other realms and

836
00:40:27,900 --> 00:40:24,340
that they have lots of you know lots of

837
00:40:30,060 --> 00:40:27,910
information to impart but but to them

838
00:40:32,660 --> 00:40:30,070
it's that they don't talk a lot about it

839
00:40:35,490 --> 00:40:32,670
because it's just second nature to them

840
00:40:37,740 --> 00:40:35,500
you know I I remember when they first

841
00:40:38,460 --> 00:40:37,750
came here and I showed them I said okay

842
00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:38,470
this is great

843
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:40,240
these people have never left their

844
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:42,130
village it's great I'm gonna ask them a

845
00:40:46,650 --> 00:40:44,770
million stupid questions right so I show

846
00:40:48,180 --> 00:40:46,660
them a picture because they're a cut

847
00:40:50,609 --> 00:40:48,190
clean slate right they haven't been

848
00:40:51,470 --> 00:40:50,619
indoctrinated by the culture kind of

849
00:40:53,930 --> 00:40:51,480
thing right

850
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:53,940
it's clean I mean nothing's clean but I

851
00:40:59,390 --> 00:40:56,850
showed them ET and I go you ever seen

852
00:41:01,970 --> 00:40:59,400
this this they go oh yeah that's the sky

853
00:41:04,130 --> 00:41:01,980
person oh yeah that's the sky people

854
00:41:06,770 --> 00:41:04,140
they said look at our petroglyphs you

855
00:41:09,620 --> 00:41:06,780
know all those those people in the rock

856
00:41:12,260 --> 00:41:09,630
art and archaeologists they come along

857
00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:12,270
they look at our little images of our

858
00:41:17,690 --> 00:41:14,910
people of this and they call it a shaman

859
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:17,700
or they they always misidentified our

860
00:41:23,330 --> 00:41:20,370
petroglyphs they they say no it's a sky

861
00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:23,340
person and if you look at their masks

862
00:41:28,610 --> 00:41:25,680
which is very interesting they're all

863
00:41:32,030 --> 00:41:28,620
sky people they don't have animal masks

864
00:41:35,420 --> 00:41:32,040
they don't have masks of birds or wear a

865
00:41:37,180 --> 00:41:35,430
mask of this they're all this oval shape

866
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:37,190
and they say they're all the sky people

867
00:41:44,330 --> 00:41:40,290
the old little mass that they were is

868
00:41:46,790 --> 00:41:44,340
their tradition of the belief that the

869
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:46,800
altai are the Altai descendants of the

870
00:41:55,460 --> 00:41:48,690
sky people is that part of their belief

871
00:41:57,350 --> 00:41:55,470
of a specific se other group on genetic

872
00:42:00,320 --> 00:41:57,360
group no they don't have that in their

873
00:42:01,850 --> 00:42:00,330
in their idea what is the word is the

874
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:01,860
origin of the Ulchi where do they think

875
00:42:08,030 --> 00:42:04,650
they came from they they think they grew

876
00:42:12,250 --> 00:42:08,040
out of the earth that the great sky

877
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:12,260
master or sky beams or the intelligence

878
00:42:18,980 --> 00:42:16,770
of the earth that they they sort they

879
00:42:22,130 --> 00:42:18,990
have all sorts of creationists in their

880
00:42:24,860 --> 00:42:22,140
in their tradition so they just they

881
00:42:27,770 --> 00:42:24,870
blue they if I said rather than having

882
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:27,780
this judeo-christian concept of being

883
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:31,290
made like an artifact by some big

884
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:34,530
supernatural being they say no they just

885
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:37,890
grew out of the earth they're much more

886
00:42:41,900 --> 00:42:39,930
or you know work we're a part of nature

887
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:41,910
we're not separate from Nate we weren't

888
00:42:47,150 --> 00:42:45,690
made by we are in an artifact right and

889
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:47,160
of course as we were talking about in

890
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:50,010
min ago we would never know completely

891
00:42:55,010 --> 00:42:52,890
because they're telling us from the

892
00:42:56,900 --> 00:42:55,020
beginning that some of this is hidden

893
00:43:00,260 --> 00:42:56,910
and cloaked because that's the way it

894
00:43:03,620 --> 00:43:00,270
needs to be conveyed in order to

895
00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:03,630
preserve the message over time I mean

896
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:05,730
are you familiar with Laird Scranton and

897
00:43:11,450 --> 00:43:09,930
his investigation of the dogon because

898
00:43:14,090 --> 00:43:11,460
because some of the parallels I thought

899
00:43:17,510 --> 00:43:14,100
are just stunning in terms of when I

900
00:43:20,030 --> 00:43:17,520
read your account of the LJ is one it's

901
00:43:21,650 --> 00:43:20,040
an oral tradition and we've been trying

902
00:43:24,830 --> 00:43:21,660
to kind of immediately have a reaction

903
00:43:26,930 --> 00:43:24,840
go oh you poor stupid people you didn't

904
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:26,940
know how to write stuff down and then

905
00:43:31,580 --> 00:43:29,610
you know Scranton lurtz grant and

906
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:31,590
reveals well they kind of did that by

907
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:33,690
design really because they wanted to

908
00:43:37,190 --> 00:43:35,850
preserve the integrity of the message

909
00:43:39,890 --> 00:43:37,200
and they found that the best way of

910
00:43:42,110 --> 00:43:39,900
doing that for over a long period of

911
00:43:44,390 --> 00:43:42,120
time was the oral tradition because when

912
00:43:47,210 --> 00:43:44,400
you're write stuff down you're much more

913
00:43:49,490 --> 00:43:47,220
prone to misinterpret it and not get the

914
00:43:52,070 --> 00:43:49,500
full story and the other thing he said

915
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:52,080
that I thought matched up well with your

916
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:53,970
investigation that all jay-z said this

917
00:43:58,790 --> 00:43:56,130
kind of hidden thing like you're saying

918
00:44:02,270 --> 00:43:58,800
is like you know they they tell to the

919
00:44:04,730 --> 00:44:02,280
first level of initiated this is the

920
00:44:07,820 --> 00:44:04,740
this is the Dogon that oh yeah we do

921
00:44:09,290 --> 00:44:07,830
that ceremony every sixty years and then

922
00:44:10,940 --> 00:44:09,300
he says after you've been in it for a

923
00:44:13,100 --> 00:44:10,950
while you realize they always have an

924
00:44:15,650 --> 00:44:13,110
excuse for doing it every fifty years

925
00:44:17,990 --> 00:44:15,660
and then that what it really is is

926
00:44:19,580 --> 00:44:18,000
there's a reason behind why we do it

927
00:44:21,590 --> 00:44:19,590
every 50 years and there's also a reason

928
00:44:24,590 --> 00:44:21,600
why we tell everyone we do it every

929
00:44:27,620 --> 00:44:24,600
sixty years so in the same way I guess

930
00:44:29,630 --> 00:44:27,630
we always have to have that well have it

931
00:44:31,940 --> 00:44:29,640
have to hold back a little bit of doubt

932
00:44:34,550 --> 00:44:31,950
or maybe I'm jumping ahead would you

933
00:44:37,490 --> 00:44:34,560
agree that the old che as much as

934
00:44:40,390 --> 00:44:37,500
they're telling us they're only allowed

935
00:44:42,620 --> 00:44:40,400
to tell us so much in a certain way or

936
00:44:45,380 --> 00:44:42,630
not do you think they're kind of telling

937
00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:45,390
us just everything no they've got no it

938
00:44:50,930 --> 00:44:47,730
took it took a long time for me to even

939
00:44:52,940 --> 00:44:50,940
get them to speak to me and not think

940
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:52,950
that I was some sort of silly western

941
00:44:57,830 --> 00:44:56,130
dilettante so it took a while and they

942
00:45:00,110 --> 00:44:57,840
give you information when they feel like

943
00:45:03,070 --> 00:45:00,120
it and you can ask them questions all

944
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:03,080
day long and they'll just ignore you so

945
00:45:06,890 --> 00:45:05,010
when they feel like giving you

946
00:45:08,390 --> 00:45:06,900
information they do when they don't feel

947
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:08,400
like giving you information they keep

948
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:09,650
their mouth shut

949
00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:13,170
so I don't know if it's I don't know if

950
00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:14,880
it's something planned except to say

951
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:17,310
that they will into it

952
00:45:23,390 --> 00:45:20,970
ugly or instinctually no in the moment

953
00:45:28,070 --> 00:45:23,400
they'll just you know you know they

954
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:28,080
never ask people what do you think about

955
00:45:32,450 --> 00:45:30,450
something they think that all linear

956
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:32,460
thoughts should basically be flush down

957
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:33,330
the toilet

958
00:45:40,550 --> 00:45:37,530
it's all about how do you feel you had

959
00:45:44,060 --> 00:45:40,560
an experience how did you feel they say

960
00:45:46,250 --> 00:45:44,070
that in the feeling is your answer when

961
00:45:48,530 --> 00:45:46,260
you have the experience you're going to

962
00:45:51,050 --> 00:45:48,540
fail to really completely understand the

963
00:45:53,450 --> 00:45:51,060
experience if that is followed by any

964
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:53,460
sort of verbal commentary in your head

965
00:45:58,070 --> 00:45:55,890
you just have to have it once you get

966
00:46:00,710 --> 00:45:58,080
into verbal commentary you're lost you

967
00:46:02,630 --> 00:46:00,720
over you over intellectualize you have a

968
00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:02,640
tendency as they would say in the east

969
00:46:08,750 --> 00:46:05,910
to put legs on a snake ie

970
00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:08,760
you make things much much more

971
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:11,250
unnecessarily complicated you know I

972
00:46:16,430 --> 00:46:13,410
thought we might return for a minute

973
00:46:18,260 --> 00:46:16,440
because I kind of blew right past it and

974
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:18,270
I think you said something rather

975
00:46:23,740 --> 00:46:20,730
profound when you said that at the end

976
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:23,750
of the day how you would characterize

977
00:46:30,470 --> 00:46:29,040
their culture is primitive but what did

978
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:30,480
you add to that because you don't I

979
00:46:35,780 --> 00:46:32,370
don't think you meant primitive in the

980
00:46:39,530 --> 00:46:35,790
sense of a derogatory term no so it

981
00:46:43,850 --> 00:46:39,540
expound on how we would understand them

982
00:46:46,490 --> 00:46:43,860
as a primitive animistic culture well

983
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:46,500
yeah I called him an elegant

984
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:51,090
sophisticated primitivity and I would

985
00:46:59,270 --> 00:46:56,330
say that it's it's there's a simplicity

986
00:47:01,910 --> 00:46:59,280
there's not the overthinking there's not

987
00:47:04,940 --> 00:47:01,920
the you know need to get into trying to

988
00:47:09,770 --> 00:47:04,950
intellectualize but there are these

989
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:09,780
amazing subtle nuances to the way they

990
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:13,890
behave and experience reality that I

991
00:47:21,530 --> 00:47:18,210
there's I cannot put it to words I would

992
00:47:26,890 --> 00:47:21,540
say that if you wanted to look at a

993
00:47:30,980 --> 00:47:26,900
culture that came close to the actual

994
00:47:33,910 --> 00:47:30,990
expression of the old Qi culture I would

995
00:47:37,940 --> 00:47:33,920
you would have to look at the Japanese

996
00:47:41,660 --> 00:47:37,950
you know I guess when I'm still driving

997
00:47:44,930 --> 00:47:41,670
towards and this is the the argument the

998
00:47:47,900 --> 00:47:44,940
debate that I get into with folks who

999
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:47,910
are really looking deeply into the et

1000
00:47:52,670 --> 00:47:50,330
thing which i think is super duper

1001
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:52,680
important especially at this time

1002
00:47:59,000 --> 00:47:56,130
because at this time in our culture we

1003
00:48:02,900 --> 00:47:59,010
are looking at disclosure right so 12:17

1004
00:48:05,590 --> 00:48:02,910
new york times ET is here if not ET is

1005
00:48:08,780 --> 00:48:05,600
here the UFO is here right this runs and

1006
00:48:11,300 --> 00:48:08,790
the then not only New York Times The

1007
00:48:13,370 --> 00:48:11,310
Washington Post CBS News Fox News

1008
00:48:17,240 --> 00:48:13,380
everybody okay so they're trying to roll

1009
00:48:19,910 --> 00:48:17,250
out ET and there is this technological

1010
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:19,920
component to it there is this threat of

1011
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:23,610
AI of singularity of ET being further

1012
00:48:30,170 --> 00:48:27,450
along but us catching up and I always

1013
00:48:32,030 --> 00:48:30,180
counter it with some of the same lines

1014
00:48:33,859 --> 00:48:32,040
that you're talking about in terms I say

1015
00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:33,869
hey as a yogi I mean one of the

1016
00:48:41,060 --> 00:48:36,510
fundamental things is that I understand

1017
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:41,070
that I don't have to do anything I am

1018
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:45,330
just my being is enough I don't have to

1019
00:48:53,930 --> 00:48:49,530
do either doing is is kind of a misstep

1020
00:48:56,090 --> 00:48:53,940
to begin with but how do we effectively

1021
00:49:00,400 --> 00:48:56,100
and I don't know if effectively is even

1022
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:00,410
the right word we do have this pressing

1023
00:49:06,620 --> 00:49:04,050
technological component both in our

1024
00:49:10,670 --> 00:49:06,630
culture but also in this extended

1025
00:49:12,770 --> 00:49:10,680
consciousness realm who says no what

1026
00:49:16,250 --> 00:49:12,780
you're really looking at Jan is very

1027
00:49:19,460 --> 00:49:16,260
primitive and as soon as we figure it

1028
00:49:22,430 --> 00:49:19,470
out then we're gonna leapfrog pass to

1029
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:22,440
all that stuff anyway and that's I guess

1030
00:49:28,970 --> 00:49:25,010
what I'm wrestling with back and forth

1031
00:49:31,580 --> 00:49:28,980
you know it's not it's not as though the

1032
00:49:33,710 --> 00:49:31,590
olci are some sort of isolated group

1033
00:49:37,370 --> 00:49:33,720
that live way the heck out in the middle

1034
00:49:38,750 --> 00:49:37,380
of nowhere where there are no roads to

1035
00:49:41,630 --> 00:49:38,760
get there I mean you have to go off

1036
00:49:43,670 --> 00:49:41,640
there through the river and you only get

1037
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:43,680
it a certain amount of time because you

1038
00:49:46,070 --> 00:49:44,610
know see

1039
00:49:48,050 --> 00:49:46,080
to eight months out of the year there

1040
00:49:50,180 --> 00:49:48,060
you know it's ice slow and you can't

1041
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:50,190
even get up to where they live it's as

1042
00:49:55,700 --> 00:49:53,130
close to being out there as you can get

1043
00:49:57,770 --> 00:49:55,710
they're totally there they love all the

1044
00:50:00,080 --> 00:49:57,780
new stuff they just you know their

1045
00:50:02,330 --> 00:50:00,090
culture is a living culture that just

1046
00:50:03,950 --> 00:50:02,340
said yeah we all grow and adapt don't

1047
00:50:06,350 --> 00:50:03,960
think that they don't have cell phones

1048
00:50:09,530 --> 00:50:06,360
they have cell phones that you know they

1049
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:09,540
they they love the technology I mean one

1050
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:11,490
of the favorite things they you know

1051
00:50:15,770 --> 00:50:12,930
they would they would come here and be

1052
00:50:17,450 --> 00:50:15,780
here and and they really appreciated the

1053
00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:17,460
fact that I can get on the phone and

1054
00:50:22,550 --> 00:50:20,400
call for Chinese takeout you know they

1055
00:50:24,410 --> 00:50:22,560
just oh that's great people deliver food

1056
00:50:26,450 --> 00:50:24,420
to your house that's wonderful that's

1057
00:50:28,910 --> 00:50:26,460
super good you know otherwise we're out

1058
00:50:31,010 --> 00:50:28,920
in our garden - were out hunting they

1059
00:50:34,310 --> 00:50:31,020
just thought that was terrific so

1060
00:50:36,890 --> 00:50:34,320
they're not anti technological you know

1061
00:50:39,590 --> 00:50:36,900
I remember a group of UCLA students that

1062
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:39,600
came back in the 90 to interview them

1063
00:50:43,820 --> 00:50:42,450
and boy and so this film crew showed up

1064
00:50:46,250 --> 00:50:43,830
and they were asking them all these

1065
00:50:49,370 --> 00:50:46,260
silly questions and looking for some

1066
00:50:51,350 --> 00:50:49,380
sort of kind of Christian apocalyptic

1067
00:50:54,170 --> 00:50:51,360
what you know what is your culture say

1068
00:50:56,750 --> 00:50:54,180
about some upcoming apocalyptic event

1069
00:50:58,520 --> 00:50:56,760
and and they just look at these people

1070
00:51:01,490 --> 00:50:58,530
like what the heck are you talking about

1071
00:51:03,650 --> 00:51:01,500
and and they were saying oh no they go

1072
00:51:06,620 --> 00:51:03,660
all nuclear power plants that's okay

1073
00:51:09,050 --> 00:51:06,630
this is okay they just say it just has

1074
00:51:10,850 --> 00:51:09,060
to fit in with nature you can put a

1075
00:51:13,490 --> 00:51:10,860
little nuclear plant over here and as

1076
00:51:15,980 --> 00:51:13,500
long as it doesn't spoil the water or

1077
00:51:18,470 --> 00:51:15,990
disturb the animals or do that it's like

1078
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:18,480
that's cool that's great you know I mean

1079
00:51:25,220 --> 00:51:21,330
that that's wonderful they all I'm

1080
00:51:28,190 --> 00:51:25,230
starting to wonder about the OJ why they

1081
00:51:30,260 --> 00:51:28,200
grow they apt they say listen the only

1082
00:51:33,620 --> 00:51:30,270
way to be the world your power plants

1083
00:51:35,780 --> 00:51:33,630
were always a bad idea from okay fun but

1084
00:51:39,110 --> 00:51:35,790
you but I mean yeah but I'm just using

1085
00:51:41,990 --> 00:51:39,120
that as an example to just give the idea

1086
00:51:43,700 --> 00:51:42,000
that they're not anti technological you

1087
00:51:46,070 --> 00:51:43,710
know they think all good technology

1088
00:51:48,380 --> 00:51:46,080
great okay that's wonderful well but see

1089
00:51:50,690 --> 00:51:48,390
I guess I'm using it as an example of

1090
00:51:53,330 --> 00:51:50,700
the same of of nailing down the

1091
00:51:55,490 --> 00:51:53,340
primitive thing because I totally get

1092
00:51:59,549 --> 00:51:55,500
what you're saying on one hand in terms

1093
00:52:02,400 --> 00:51:59,559
of elegant sophisticated Prem

1094
00:52:06,079 --> 00:52:02,410
but I also want to throw on the table in

1095
00:52:09,750 --> 00:52:06,089
just a very kind of direct way a

1096
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:09,760
primitive in the sense that they don't

1097
00:52:16,770 --> 00:52:14,170
understand stuff that other people who

1098
00:52:19,740 --> 00:52:16,780
are in this extended consciousness realm

1099
00:52:23,130 --> 00:52:19,750
do understand oh they do understand they

1100
00:52:26,730 --> 00:52:23,140
have the intelligence of their community

1101
00:52:32,270 --> 00:52:26,740
is mighty and varied they're very

1102
00:52:37,260 --> 00:52:34,530
intelligent and ER state they think it's

1103
00:52:41,789 --> 00:52:37,270
great but they they choose it's a choice

1104
00:52:45,450 --> 00:52:41,799
to live a much more simple life a much

1105
00:52:50,900 --> 00:52:45,460
more relaxed life to not to not be a

1106
00:52:54,770 --> 00:52:50,910
culture that is driven by greed or

1107
00:52:58,760 --> 00:52:54,780
necessarily a personal accomplishment or

1108
00:53:01,200 --> 00:52:58,770
they aren't people with high anxiety

1109
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:01,210
like like people are in the West they

1110
00:53:07,970 --> 00:53:04,450
cannot believe how anxious Westerners

1111
00:53:12,059 --> 00:53:07,980
are they they just have a different

1112
00:53:15,630 --> 00:53:12,069
simple lifestyle and that the simplicity

1113
00:53:17,730 --> 00:53:15,640
comes from not in the Christian sense of

1114
00:53:20,339 --> 00:53:17,740
the term like winning Frank's at France

1115
00:53:22,859 --> 00:53:20,349
st. Francis we're talking about you know

1116
00:53:25,859 --> 00:53:22,869
living a life of poverty it has nothing

1117
00:53:28,620 --> 00:53:25,869
to do in regards to expiate in one sense

1118
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:28,630
it's learning to live a simple life or

1119
00:53:33,420 --> 00:53:32,290
peace in the world because it's just a

1120
00:53:37,890 --> 00:53:33,430
happier way of being

1121
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:37,900
yeah but eating but if you if you want

1122
00:53:41,670 --> 00:53:39,490
to go out you know if you want to go out

1123
00:53:42,900 --> 00:53:41,680
and do all this that's great if you want

1124
00:53:44,940 --> 00:53:42,910
to go out and do all this stuff that's

1125
00:53:46,589 --> 00:53:44,950
great they're not gonna make a value

1126
00:53:50,549 --> 00:53:46,599
judgment about it they just have their

1127
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:50,559
own belief when it comes to how to be a

1128
00:53:57,210 --> 00:53:53,530
good human being on this planet yeah I

1129
00:54:00,059 --> 00:53:57,220
get that and I get the dial thing I also

1130
00:54:02,430 --> 00:54:00,069
get the yogic thing I also get the name

1131
00:54:05,250 --> 00:54:02,440
Karoli Baba thing walk around with a

1132
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:05,260
broken bowl on your head and be a total

1133
00:54:09,599 --> 00:54:07,930
renunciate because that's the only way I

1134
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:09,609
can get clean

1135
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:12,130
of the thoughts and the cultural

1136
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:15,249
indoctrination and all the materialistic

1137
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:17,650
documentation I have to totally remove

1138
00:54:23,729 --> 00:54:20,410
myself from that and then I cross over

1139
00:54:25,289 --> 00:54:23,739
to some other understanding which so

1140
00:54:26,190 --> 00:54:25,299
many wisdom traditions have talked about

1141
00:54:28,579 --> 00:54:26,200
and then we get back to the

1142
00:54:31,620 --> 00:54:28,589
Enlightenment thing and then I know

1143
00:54:34,710 --> 00:54:31,630
everything and I can then pick and

1144
00:54:37,019 --> 00:54:34,720
choose what I know what I believe so to

1145
00:54:40,999 --> 00:54:37,029
me what all that means is there's a lot

1146
00:54:45,299 --> 00:54:41,009
of different ways of understanding the

1147
00:54:47,849 --> 00:54:45,309
topology of the full spectrum of

1148
00:54:50,519 --> 00:54:47,859
consciousness and I always come back to

1149
00:54:53,970 --> 00:54:50,529
what are we looking at when we look at

1150
00:54:57,690 --> 00:54:53,980
any particular group like the Ulchi when

1151
00:55:00,450 --> 00:54:57,700
we look at their understanding of full

1152
00:55:02,970 --> 00:55:00,460
spectrum consciousness what are they

1153
00:55:06,059 --> 00:55:02,980
including what are they leaving out and

1154
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:06,069
why are they including it and or leaving

1155
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:08,890
it out okay they would say that we all

1156
00:55:15,059 --> 00:55:12,249
instinctually and or intuitive ly feel

1157
00:55:18,989 --> 00:55:15,069
that there's a different dimension to

1158
00:55:23,989 --> 00:55:18,999
ourselves and to nature they would also

1159
00:55:28,140 --> 00:55:23,999
say but it's hard to grasp because it's

1160
00:55:32,819 --> 00:55:28,150
too close it's too general and it's too

1161
00:55:36,989 --> 00:55:32,829
all-encompassing and that that is that

1162
00:55:39,420 --> 00:55:36,999
is reality and that what we're doing is

1163
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:39,430
that we're in constant dialogue we're in

1164
00:55:46,739 --> 00:55:42,130
constant interaction with all

1165
00:55:50,700 --> 00:55:46,749
consciousness at any time and we're just

1166
00:55:53,460 --> 00:55:50,710
a tuning our thoughts to this realm or

1167
00:55:56,009 --> 00:55:53,470
this realm or this realm it's not that

1168
00:55:58,650 --> 00:55:56,019
they believe say for example that their

1169
00:56:01,259 --> 00:55:58,660
spirits are aren't types of other

1170
00:56:04,019 --> 00:56:01,269
spirits that exist everywhere else of

1171
00:56:06,690 --> 00:56:04,029
course not every spirit or consciousness

1172
00:56:08,009 --> 00:56:06,700
it's for example what every time they

1173
00:56:10,499 --> 00:56:08,019
would come here the first thing they

1174
00:56:11,910 --> 00:56:10,509
would do we would have to go visit our

1175
00:56:15,479 --> 00:56:11,920
friends over on the Suquamish

1176
00:56:17,339 --> 00:56:15,489
reservation the native peoples here they

1177
00:56:20,579 --> 00:56:17,349
would go to the native peoples and

1178
00:56:23,220 --> 00:56:20,589
request we have come here we are on your

1179
00:56:26,499 --> 00:56:23,230
land in your space with your spirit

1180
00:56:29,349 --> 00:56:26,509
do we have your permission to call our

1181
00:56:32,049 --> 00:56:29,359
spirits over here so they through the

1182
00:56:34,809 --> 00:56:32,059
years they developed a very very

1183
00:56:36,999 --> 00:56:34,819
intimate relationship to the people here

1184
00:56:39,279 --> 00:56:37,009
consciousness you're never gonna pin it

1185
00:56:41,410 --> 00:56:39,289
down you know I'm gonna just keep doing

1186
00:56:44,980 --> 00:56:41,420
my work and then I and I think about

1187
00:56:47,049 --> 00:56:44,990
your podcast and I know I'll make them

1188
00:56:49,150 --> 00:56:47,059
I'll make a knowledge claim here I know

1189
00:56:50,470 --> 00:56:49,160
that a hundred years from now people are

1190
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:50,480
going to be listening to your podcast

1191
00:56:55,329 --> 00:56:53,450
and I'll tell you why because you get

1192
00:56:57,519 --> 00:56:55,339
all the best people and you're getting

1193
00:56:59,799 --> 00:56:57,529
the best people that reminds me of what

1194
00:57:02,349 --> 00:56:59,809
I in the seventies and I was on off to

1195
00:57:04,539 --> 00:57:02,359
eslint Institute every weekend to to

1196
00:57:06,849 --> 00:57:04,549
listen to Alan Watts or stanislav grof

1197
00:57:09,339 --> 00:57:06,859
and these are people in their early part

1198
00:57:11,230 --> 00:57:09,349
of their career really just developing

1199
00:57:12,910 --> 00:57:11,240
their ideas and a lot of the people that

1200
00:57:15,940 --> 00:57:12,920
you've got there isn't there at that

1201
00:57:18,700 --> 00:57:15,950
same place they they're coming up their

1202
00:57:20,710 --> 00:57:18,710
ideas they're doing their research and a

1203
00:57:22,420 --> 00:57:20,720
hundred years from now people are going

1204
00:57:26,470 --> 00:57:22,430
to look at the guest that you've been

1205
00:57:28,329 --> 00:57:26,480
able to to get onto your show and

1206
00:57:29,979 --> 00:57:28,339
they're and they're gonna say oh yeah

1207
00:57:32,140 --> 00:57:29,989
you know there were all those podcasts

1208
00:57:34,269 --> 00:57:32,150
way back then and they're gonna go but

1209
00:57:36,579 --> 00:57:34,279
you got to check out this you got to

1210
00:57:40,180 --> 00:57:36,589
check out skeptical because this guy was

1211
00:57:42,339 --> 00:57:40,190
an amazing podcast person he you know he

1212
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:42,349
brought all these amazing people they're

1213
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:44,210
beginning of their careers and their

1214
00:57:50,979 --> 00:57:46,970
ideas I mean I think that's that I think

1215
00:57:54,279 --> 00:57:50,989
is fantastic you are way too kind to so

1216
00:57:56,799 --> 00:57:54,289
so now so now we are challenged okay you

1217
00:58:00,370 --> 00:57:56,809
and I are challenged to produce just

1218
00:58:02,859 --> 00:58:00,380
such an episode here and you've given us

1219
00:58:04,599 --> 00:58:02,869
a lot of good pieces but I want to

1220
00:58:05,829 --> 00:58:04,609
return to something that you just said a

1221
00:58:07,809 --> 00:58:05,839
minute ago because I thought it was

1222
00:58:09,999 --> 00:58:07,819
really interesting and I want to

1223
00:58:12,249 --> 00:58:10,009
approach it in this kind of skeptical

1224
00:58:15,309 --> 00:58:12,259
kind of way and I keep beating on the

1225
00:58:17,170 --> 00:58:15,319
same drum here to do a play on the very

1226
00:58:19,269 --> 00:58:17,180
cover of your book where there is the

1227
00:58:23,019 --> 00:58:19,279
drum beating and I want to know also

1228
00:58:24,700 --> 00:58:23,029
what is the connection of music to all

1229
00:58:26,319 --> 00:58:24,710
this but that's probably a whole other

1230
00:58:30,130 --> 00:58:26,329
thing we've probably talked an hour on

1231
00:58:32,499 --> 00:58:30,140
that it's I mean it is creates a

1232
00:58:33,930 --> 00:58:32,509
frequency of vibration the idea of

1233
00:58:35,940 --> 00:58:33,940
sympathetic resonance

1234
00:58:38,549 --> 00:58:35,950
which holds true to the consciousness

1235
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:38,559
you know if you think if that idea if

1236
00:58:42,359 --> 00:58:40,210
you think a certain way or you're

1237
00:58:44,460 --> 00:58:42,369
thinking about things that said that

1238
00:58:47,579 --> 00:58:44,470
consciousness has its own kind of

1239
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:47,589
sympathetic residents and that it will

1240
00:58:53,359 --> 00:58:51,010
attract it similar you know similar

1241
00:58:56,010 --> 00:58:53,369
fields okay

1242
00:58:58,260 --> 00:58:56,020
related questions so they all Jay come

1243
00:59:02,609 --> 00:58:58,270
here and they say we'd like to connect

1244
00:59:05,099 --> 00:59:02,619
with native people from your land so two

1245
00:59:07,589 --> 00:59:05,109
things one they're kind of stepping over

1246
00:59:09,690 --> 00:59:07,599
our culture but you know for the last

1247
00:59:11,220 --> 00:59:09,700
couple hundred years and saying well you

1248
00:59:14,039 --> 00:59:11,230
know what I really need to do is connect

1249
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:14,049
with these people why what is special

1250
00:59:19,740 --> 00:59:17,530
about those native people is it the

1251
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:19,750
amount of time that they've been here or

1252
00:59:25,980 --> 00:59:23,530
as you suggest you said that there's a

1253
00:59:28,250 --> 00:59:25,990
deeper spiritual connection but it also

1254
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:28,260
implies that there are these different

1255
00:59:35,279 --> 00:59:30,970
spirit groups that you have your spirit

1256
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:35,289
groups Native Washington right native

1257
00:59:40,380 --> 00:59:37,690
people and we have our spirit groups but

1258
00:59:43,019 --> 00:59:40,390
they are somehow linked or connected I

1259
00:59:45,059 --> 00:59:43,029
mean they didn't ask you Jan to say and

1260
00:59:47,700 --> 00:59:45,069
Jan we of course want to connect with

1261
00:59:50,819 --> 00:59:47,710
your spirits too and make sure that it's

1262
00:59:53,010 --> 00:59:50,829
okay for us very they're very pragmatic

1263
00:59:55,380 --> 00:59:53,020
it wouldn't matter they want to talk to

1264
00:59:58,109 --> 00:59:55,390
the people who know who the spirits of

1265
01:00:00,029 --> 00:59:58,119
this land have been you know from from

1266
01:00:02,730 --> 01:00:00,039
the beginning of time the people that

1267
01:00:06,029 --> 01:00:02,740
have contact so it's out of courtesy

1268
01:00:09,089 --> 01:00:06,039
hello their whole approach to life is

1269
01:00:10,740 --> 01:00:09,099
it's all the guest host relationship so

1270
01:00:13,289 --> 01:00:10,750
they are guests here and there's a

1271
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:13,299
certain kind of spiritual and or social

1272
01:00:18,180 --> 01:00:16,210
propriety that's necessary and so they

1273
01:00:21,089 --> 01:00:18,190
go okay who are the people around here

1274
01:00:23,730 --> 01:00:21,099
that really have you can can tell us

1275
01:00:25,260 --> 01:00:23,740
about who the spheres of the land and

1276
01:00:27,599 --> 01:00:25,270
water of nature what's the indigenous

1277
01:00:29,970 --> 01:00:27,609
people so they go and they ask

1278
01:00:31,799 --> 01:00:29,980
permission we're going to do this we

1279
01:00:34,650 --> 01:00:31,809
don't want to offend you we don't want

1280
01:00:37,710 --> 01:00:34,660
to offend your spirits do we have your

1281
01:00:41,309 --> 01:00:37,720
permission to call our spirits over from

1282
01:00:44,279 --> 01:00:41,319
Siberia to join us here why we do our

1283
01:00:45,599 --> 01:00:44,289
work fair enough I don't want to drill

1284
01:00:47,770 --> 01:00:45,609
into it because I think I'm kind of

1285
01:00:49,510 --> 01:00:47,780
getting us off track but I mean they

1286
01:00:53,260 --> 01:00:49,520
asked you to crack open the yellow pages

1287
01:00:55,090 --> 01:00:53,270
and call up mediums or or anything like

1288
01:00:58,150 --> 01:00:55,100
that or they didn't ask you to take you

1289
01:01:01,720 --> 01:00:58,160
over to to s RI and go talk to a

1290
01:01:03,910 --> 01:01:01,730
researcher who's worked with mediums who

1291
01:01:07,660 --> 01:01:03,920
connect with spirits you know they have

1292
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:07,670
a different yy1 spirit versus another

1293
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:10,090
spirit and from a practical standpoint

1294
01:01:14,350 --> 01:01:12,170
you know what are they what are they

1295
01:01:16,090 --> 01:01:14,360
saying they're the time is also of

1296
01:01:17,650 --> 01:01:16,100
interest you know you said that the

1297
01:01:19,330 --> 01:01:17,660
spirits that are connected with this

1298
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:19,340
land over the longest period of time

1299
01:01:23,170 --> 01:01:21,170
what does that say about their

1300
01:01:25,150 --> 01:01:23,180
understanding of time people like you

1301
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:25,160
and I come to question the idea of time

1302
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:27,050
and is it really linear and all the rest

1303
01:01:31,540 --> 01:01:29,330
of that and yet they're kind of putting

1304
01:01:33,820 --> 01:01:31,550
it on a kind of linear time frame there

1305
01:01:36,180 --> 01:01:33,830
any thoughts not necessarily they don't

1306
01:01:41,740 --> 01:01:36,190
they you know what we know

1307
01:01:43,420 --> 01:01:41,750
scientifically to be true is that the

1308
01:01:47,050 --> 01:01:43,430
only things that really exist in nature

1309
01:01:49,270 --> 01:01:47,060
are cycles and rhythms now we have

1310
01:01:51,490 --> 01:01:49,280
things like clocks and we have time and

1311
01:01:54,370 --> 01:01:51,500
we have latitude and longitude and etc

1312
01:01:56,830 --> 01:01:54,380
etc and those are social conventions and

1313
01:01:59,740 --> 01:01:56,840
they're one calendar and they're great

1314
01:02:04,350 --> 01:01:59,750
and and they're useful but it doesn't

1315
01:02:08,170 --> 01:02:04,360
make them real you'll see see time as

1316
01:02:10,900 --> 01:02:08,180
everything as in all in most indigenous

1317
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:10,910
cultures I can't speak for all and very

1318
01:02:14,950 --> 01:02:11,930
much like the Taoist

1319
01:02:19,930 --> 01:02:14,960
everything is cyclic everything is a

1320
01:02:21,610 --> 01:02:19,940
cycle a medium may interact with

1321
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:21,620
personal spirits I don't know who the

1322
01:02:25,300 --> 01:02:23,210
spirits are that they're interacting

1323
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:25,310
with but there's all levels of spirits

1324
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:28,130
there's all kinds of spirits the Ulchi

1325
01:02:32,890 --> 01:02:30,050
say look we're in your land who are the

1326
01:02:34,890 --> 01:02:32,900
land spheres right who are the who are

1327
01:02:37,870 --> 01:02:34,900
the spirits of this place there are

1328
01:02:41,260 --> 01:02:37,880
there's a for them there is a hierarchy

1329
01:02:43,390 --> 01:02:41,270
of spirits but it's not as though one is

1330
01:02:47,140 --> 01:02:43,400
necessarily in charge of the other it's

1331
01:02:48,910 --> 01:02:47,150
more a really true meritocracy so

1332
01:02:51,340 --> 01:02:48,920
they're interested you know it's like

1333
01:02:53,530 --> 01:02:51,350
everybody has the Sun everybody has the

1334
01:02:55,420 --> 01:02:53,540
moon okay these are the big big cosmic

1335
01:02:57,880 --> 01:02:55,430
spirits but the whole world

1336
01:03:01,990 --> 01:02:57,890
but when you start getting to certain

1337
01:03:04,799 --> 01:03:02,000
areas of the land or the water that

1338
01:03:07,450 --> 01:03:04,809
there's a there's kind of a secondary

1339
01:03:08,950 --> 01:03:07,460
there are other spirits that control

1340
01:03:10,859 --> 01:03:08,960
that and then there are spirits under

1341
01:03:13,770 --> 01:03:10,869
those spirits under those spirits a

1342
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:13,780
medium may work with his or her own

1343
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:17,210
spirit spirits that guide them to give

1344
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:19,730
them information but they aren't the

1345
01:03:24,099 --> 01:03:21,410
bigger spheres they aren't the land

1346
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:24,109
spirits have you ever talked to the

1347
01:03:29,380 --> 01:03:27,650
altai about for example what people are

1348
01:03:32,079 --> 01:03:29,390
experiencing through this near-death

1349
01:03:34,900 --> 01:03:32,089
experience that we talk about a lot here

1350
01:03:37,059 --> 01:03:34,910
and I know there's a lot of different

1351
01:03:39,460 --> 01:03:37,069
cultures the Tibetan culture and I read

1352
01:03:40,930 --> 01:03:39,470
it in your book you know this I don't

1353
01:03:42,339 --> 01:03:40,940
want to say it's not an under rule

1354
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:42,349
because they don't call it an underworld

1355
01:03:49,450 --> 01:03:45,890
but this afterlife world what is our

1356
01:03:52,390 --> 01:03:49,460
relationship with that after bodily

1357
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:52,400
death now that's a great question here's

1358
01:03:56,349 --> 01:03:54,050
something that I think I don't think

1359
01:03:59,920 --> 01:03:56,359
anybody's ever thought of or been aware

1360
01:04:02,680 --> 01:03:59,930
of they talk a lot about ancestors right

1361
01:04:05,890 --> 01:04:02,690
people talk about ancestors and shamans

1362
01:04:08,859 --> 01:04:05,900
have do this ancestral worship the old

1363
01:04:10,539 --> 01:04:08,869
cheedo this is what they believe you're

1364
01:04:13,030 --> 01:04:10,549
gonna like this especially when it comes

1365
01:04:15,099 --> 01:04:13,040
to past lives they believe that we're

1366
01:04:17,349 --> 01:04:15,109
here for a limited amount of time and

1367
01:04:19,420 --> 01:04:17,359
we're really lucky to be here and that

1368
01:04:23,410 --> 01:04:19,430
we should expend if you really want to

1369
01:04:27,309 --> 01:04:23,420
experience the world or the or the the

1370
01:04:29,980 --> 01:04:27,319
best way of experiencing the world in a

1371
01:04:34,299 --> 01:04:29,990
more accurate way is by using your

1372
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:34,309
senses and using your your nervous

1373
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:37,250
system and using how you and and

1374
01:04:43,359 --> 01:04:39,650
thinking about how something feels not

1375
01:04:44,799 --> 01:04:43,369
just emotionally but somatically so they

1376
01:04:46,539 --> 01:04:44,809
believe we're here for a certain amount

1377
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:46,549
of time it's a great gift to be on this

1378
01:04:52,230 --> 01:04:49,730
planet you know but when we're passing

1379
01:04:55,809 --> 01:04:52,240
through you know we're we're lucky we

1380
01:05:00,010 --> 01:04:55,819
reincarnated here we will come and go

1381
01:05:03,819 --> 01:05:00,020
but nature is eternal now once we pass

1382
01:05:06,809 --> 01:05:03,829
on they say that the transition into

1383
01:05:09,250 --> 01:05:06,819
that next world could take a year or so

1384
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:09,260
so your transition

1385
01:05:14,710 --> 01:05:11,330
and then they have their whole ceremony

1386
01:05:17,230 --> 01:05:14,720
about offering food and clothing to this

1387
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:17,240
person for that year-long transition

1388
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:20,930
well once that's done they have big

1389
01:05:25,630 --> 01:05:23,690
cultural taboos about you can't use the

1390
01:05:27,580 --> 01:05:25,640
person's name anymore and you can't do

1391
01:05:30,580 --> 01:05:27,590
this and you can't do that you don't

1392
01:05:32,770 --> 01:05:30,590
want to think about them if they fell up

1393
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:32,780
to you in a dream and they come visit

1394
01:05:35,950 --> 01:05:35,330
you that's great but you have to let

1395
01:05:38,830 --> 01:05:35,960
them go

1396
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:38,840
and it's because after you die that

1397
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:41,690
wherever you end up going you're going

1398
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:43,690
to be there for thousands of years

1399
01:05:51,460 --> 01:05:47,210
whatever this new thing is and that if

1400
01:05:54,100 --> 01:05:51,470
and as you start to go into that new

1401
01:05:57,100 --> 01:05:54,110
life on the other world if you were to

1402
01:05:59,290 --> 01:05:57,110
call them back it would be very rude it

1403
01:06:02,050 --> 01:05:59,300
would be calling them back to a life

1404
01:06:03,670 --> 01:06:02,060
that they're no longer connected to

1405
01:06:05,830 --> 01:06:03,680
it's like saying what you know would be

1406
01:06:08,770 --> 01:06:05,840
like in the next world you're asking

1407
01:06:11,290 --> 01:06:08,780
them to come back and relive a path it

1408
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:11,300
would be their past life so you never

1409
01:06:15,850 --> 01:06:13,490
call on them you let them you let them

1410
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:15,860
go if they visit you that's great they

1411
01:06:19,660 --> 01:06:17,570
may visit you for a while and they'll

1412
01:06:22,510 --> 01:06:19,670
disappear but they've moved on to their

1413
01:06:26,230 --> 01:06:22,520
next life how would you personally

1414
01:06:28,900 --> 01:06:26,240
reconcile that with this idea of the

1415
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:28,910
love connection because when you look at

1416
01:06:33,430 --> 01:06:31,730
the NDE literature and you look at some

1417
01:06:35,830 --> 01:06:33,440
of the after death communication

1418
01:06:39,220 --> 01:06:35,840
literature what comes through in that

1419
01:06:42,450 --> 01:06:39,230
data if you will is that it's the love

1420
01:06:46,210 --> 01:06:42,460
the bond that we form with these other

1421
01:06:48,130 --> 01:06:46,220
Souls that does bring us back and that

1422
01:06:51,070 --> 01:06:48,140
the after death communication says that

1423
01:06:54,670 --> 01:06:51,080
these folks are looking down on us that

1424
01:06:57,250 --> 01:06:54,680
the ancestors the ancestors are here and

1425
01:06:59,740 --> 01:06:57,260
they're here for a long time so I know

1426
01:07:01,600 --> 01:06:59,750
this goes against what the Ulchi is

1427
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:01,610
saying and maybe it doesn't maybe it can

1428
01:07:05,020 --> 01:07:02,930
be reconciled in the way that you're

1429
01:07:07,030 --> 01:07:05,030
saying that the altie say well just that

1430
01:07:08,980 --> 01:07:07,040
may be true but don't pull them in don't

1431
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:08,990
bug them so that they can get on with

1432
01:07:12,370 --> 01:07:10,730
their own stuff but what do you make of

1433
01:07:15,990 --> 01:07:12,380
the love connection in general and that

1434
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:16,000
in particular I agree with a local

1435
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:19,610
connection in regards to the old you say

1436
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:22,530
that the truest person that

1437
01:07:27,590 --> 01:07:25,650
is most natural is a human hearted

1438
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:27,600
person and that that's what they

1439
01:07:31,790 --> 01:07:29,850
classify but they'll never get in there

1440
01:07:36,500 --> 01:07:31,800
like Confucius they'll never get into

1441
01:07:40,460 --> 01:07:36,510
explaining what that means they they do

1442
01:07:43,330 --> 01:07:40,470
believe that special people people that

1443
01:07:47,570 --> 01:07:43,340
were exceptional in their culture do

1444
01:07:50,540 --> 01:07:47,580
ascend beyond and go to a realm that

1445
01:07:53,090 --> 01:07:50,550
they do become kind of clan protectors

1446
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:53,100
or ancestors but they do believe that

1447
01:07:58,850 --> 01:07:55,050
you would have to have had a very

1448
01:08:01,550 --> 01:07:58,860
exceptional life not to to get into that

1449
01:08:05,390 --> 01:08:01,560
realm and not end up just sort of going

1450
01:08:07,340 --> 01:08:05,400
on to you know your next journey this

1451
01:08:10,190 --> 01:08:07,350
next life you're going to go to they

1452
01:08:11,390 --> 01:08:10,200
believe that in this other world you're

1453
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:11,400
going to live you're gonna have a long

1454
01:08:15,470 --> 01:08:13,770
life there two or three thousand years

1455
01:08:18,440 --> 01:08:15,480
and then once you're there you die there

1456
01:08:19,849 --> 01:08:18,450
and then you're reborn again and you

1457
01:08:22,039 --> 01:08:19,859
could come back to this planet or you

1458
01:08:23,300 --> 01:08:22,049
could go be an et on another planet who

1459
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:23,310
knows where you're going to be reborn

1460
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:26,250
they could be anywhere what are you

1461
01:08:30,500 --> 01:08:28,770
making this always fascinates me is the

1462
01:08:31,910 --> 01:08:30,510
reincarnation thing one of the things I

1463
01:08:35,059 --> 01:08:31,920
don't think is interesting about that is

1464
01:08:39,220 --> 01:08:35,069
when you try and pin it down culturally

1465
01:08:42,410 --> 01:08:39,230
you wind up with some very specific

1466
01:08:44,270 --> 01:08:42,420
differences in what people believe right

1467
01:08:47,030 --> 01:08:44,280
like what you just said right there is

1468
01:08:49,460 --> 01:08:47,040
something really kind of specific that

1469
01:08:51,140 --> 01:08:49,470
doesn't go into other cultures other

1470
01:08:54,440 --> 01:08:51,150
cultures say hey you can reincarnation

1471
01:08:57,140 --> 01:08:54,450
it only happens three times I have 15

1472
01:08:59,360 --> 01:08:57,150
times or the interval between times is

1473
01:09:00,770 --> 01:08:59,370
you know 50 years or a hundred years

1474
01:09:03,470 --> 01:09:00,780
well like you just said thousands years

1475
01:09:05,500 --> 01:09:03,480
and then you go look at you know Jim

1476
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:05,510
Tucker even Stan Stephenson at

1477
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:07,290
University of Virginia and they said

1478
01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:09,210
gosh darn it was trying to study at the

1479
01:09:16,099 --> 01:09:11,250
scientific way and now we have this kid

1480
01:09:18,950 --> 01:09:16,109
who was it is born in the 80s or 90s and

1481
01:09:21,550 --> 01:09:18,960
he's remembering vivid memories of world

1482
01:09:24,740 --> 01:09:21,560
war ii fighter pilot on other kids so

1483
01:09:28,099 --> 01:09:24,750
what do you make of that data and in

1484
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:28,109
general what we do when we have data

1485
01:09:34,550 --> 01:09:30,810
that comes back that contradicts other

1486
01:09:36,019 --> 01:09:34,560
data in this extended consciousness

1487
01:09:37,819 --> 01:09:36,029
realm thing because again we have

1488
01:09:40,849 --> 01:09:37,829
this conversation Jim I think this is

1489
01:09:43,249 --> 01:09:40,859
great I think I mean even you know if

1490
01:09:45,919 --> 01:09:43,259
you try first of all you have to be

1491
01:09:47,839 --> 01:09:45,929
comfortable with ambiguity you know I

1492
01:09:50,059 --> 01:09:47,849
would tree if I tried to pen down the

1493
01:09:52,039 --> 01:09:50,069
whole tree with a tango is that really

1494
01:09:53,089 --> 01:09:52,049
true they go well I don't know we

1495
01:09:56,569 --> 01:09:53,099
haven't been there yet

1496
01:09:59,839 --> 01:09:56,579
who knows be open keep keep an open mind

1497
01:10:02,029 --> 01:09:59,849
this is what we've heard some people say

1498
01:10:03,799 --> 01:10:02,039
this some people say this some people

1499
01:10:06,859 --> 01:10:03,809
they say that we haven't been there

1500
01:10:09,950 --> 01:10:06,869
being open to everything so all this all

1501
01:10:11,450 --> 01:10:09,960
this NDE and reincarnation I listen to

1502
01:10:13,580 --> 01:10:11,460
it I watch it I'm aware of the

1503
01:10:16,189 --> 01:10:13,590
University of Virginia's research and

1504
01:10:19,209 --> 01:10:16,199
we're you know I look at the work by

1505
01:10:21,529 --> 01:10:19,219
Robert John and Brenda Don I've you know

1506
01:10:24,410 --> 01:10:21,539
it's fantastic

1507
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:24,420
who knows that's what makes the jury

1508
01:10:27,859 --> 01:10:26,130
that you know it's not it that's what

1509
01:10:30,500 --> 01:10:27,869
makes everything so wonderful and

1510
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:30,510
exciting is it we're we're you know and

1511
01:10:35,450 --> 01:10:32,250
yes it's going to be contradictory who

1512
01:10:39,470 --> 01:10:35,460
knows just keep on going let's find out

1513
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:39,480
what we can find out science isn't wrong

1514
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:43,170
it's just incomplete well said right and

1515
01:10:47,810 --> 01:10:46,530
I love all the new stuff that's coming I

1516
01:10:49,250 --> 01:10:47,820
mean I you know I listen to you the

1517
01:10:51,830 --> 01:10:49,260
people to come on your show it's like

1518
01:10:54,919 --> 01:10:51,840
wow that's another idea I don't say I

1519
01:10:58,339 --> 01:10:54,929
I'm not a this is not about making

1520
01:11:00,649 --> 01:10:58,349
people wrong you know the only people I

1521
01:11:03,290 --> 01:11:00,659
think are wrong in any of this are the

1522
01:11:06,500 --> 01:11:03,300
hardcore materialistic scientists when

1523
01:11:09,379 --> 01:11:06,510
given evidence that is in flat

1524
01:11:11,569 --> 01:11:09,389
contradiction to what they're saying

1525
01:11:13,729 --> 01:11:11,579
rather than being true scientist about

1526
01:11:15,859 --> 01:11:13,739
it which a lot of them have come that

1527
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:15,869
way and said Wow here's some new data

1528
01:11:22,370 --> 01:11:20,010
let's go check this out I I was I had I

1529
01:11:24,709 --> 01:11:22,380
was mistaken let's go here you know

1530
01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:24,719
those those are the true scientists the

1531
01:11:28,100 --> 01:11:26,489
other ones you know they go no it can't

1532
01:11:30,290 --> 01:11:28,110
be possible and we don't care about all

1533
01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:30,300
your research studies and I don't care

1534
01:11:33,319 --> 01:11:32,250
if you did a triple blind test and bla

1535
01:11:35,299 --> 01:11:33,329
bla bla bla bla

1536
01:11:39,169 --> 01:11:35,309
you're wrong wrong wrong that kind of

1537
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:39,179
arrogant attitude by those people that

1538
01:11:44,839 --> 01:11:42,210
those people are wrong everybody else

1539
01:11:47,839 --> 01:11:44,849
yeah everybody else is just exploring

1540
01:11:49,070 --> 01:11:47,849
and discovering and adding it working

1541
01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:49,080
hard and you know

1542
01:11:55,100 --> 01:11:51,570
to add to our knowledge base and that's

1543
01:11:58,640 --> 01:11:55,110
so exciting yeah yeah I always like the

1544
01:12:00,740 --> 01:11:58,650
you know not even wrong kind of thing so

1545
01:12:02,480 --> 01:12:00,750
to me there's nothing wrong with being

1546
01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:02,490
wrong I'm wrong all the time

1547
01:12:07,070 --> 01:12:04,770
I celebrate other people are wrong what

1548
01:12:10,610 --> 01:12:07,080
I have a hard time tolerating are the

1549
01:12:13,370 --> 01:12:10,620
folks who are not even wrong like not

1550
01:12:15,380 --> 01:12:13,380
even in the ballpark of talking about

1551
01:12:17,620 --> 01:12:15,390
the same thing so like you're saying if

1552
01:12:20,480 --> 01:12:17,630
you think consciousness isn't

1553
01:12:23,510 --> 01:12:20,490
epiphenomena to the brain it's not that

1554
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:23,520
you're wrong it's you're not even wrong

1555
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:26,250
in the sense of we can't begin to have

1556
01:12:30,380 --> 01:12:28,290
this conversation and I think that that

1557
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:30,390
to me is also interesting back to what

1558
01:12:35,630 --> 01:12:32,970
we're saying about this secret knowledge

1559
01:12:38,030 --> 01:12:35,640
kind of thing in secret society thing

1560
01:12:40,490 --> 01:12:38,040
because I think there's a little clue

1561
01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:40,500
there that these cultures are leaving

1562
01:12:44,540 --> 01:12:42,330
for us and one from one of my

1563
01:12:47,420 --> 01:12:44,550
interpretations of that is that you

1564
01:12:51,410 --> 01:12:47,430
you're just gonna only get so far with

1565
01:12:54,050 --> 01:12:51,420
certain people who are not indoctrinated

1566
01:12:56,870 --> 01:12:54,060
or not passing the litmus test or not

1567
01:12:59,360 --> 01:12:56,880
getting to that level and I love what

1568
01:13:01,460 --> 01:12:59,370
you said just about how they deal with

1569
01:13:04,010 --> 01:13:01,470
different beliefs they go well you know

1570
01:13:08,270 --> 01:13:04,020
hey it could be this could be this that

1571
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:08,280
seems like an advanced way of thinking

1572
01:13:14,210 --> 01:13:11,970
about this stuff that isn't super

1573
01:13:17,180 --> 01:13:14,220
interested in engaging with stuff that

1574
01:13:19,790 --> 01:13:17,190
people who haven't even gotten to the

1575
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:19,800
first leg of the journey you know right

1576
01:13:23,930 --> 01:13:21,690
well they say even for Westerners they

1577
01:13:26,270 --> 01:13:23,940
would always say go listen to what

1578
01:13:28,100 --> 01:13:26,280
everybody has to say go out there and

1579
01:13:31,370 --> 01:13:28,110
explore listen to what people have to

1580
01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:31,380
say you'll either you know it's it's

1581
01:13:37,010 --> 01:13:34,410
important to always be in an open frame

1582
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:37,020
of mind and and but they will also say

1583
01:13:43,670 --> 01:13:40,410
intuitively instinctively you're gonna

1584
01:13:47,390 --> 01:13:43,680
feel no I'm not quite sure about this

1585
01:13:50,660 --> 01:13:47,400
and that those those are the keys to

1586
01:13:52,550 --> 01:13:50,670
understanding is that even well maybe I

1587
01:13:55,520 --> 01:13:52,560
don't know I just get this funny feeling

1588
01:13:57,880 --> 01:13:55,530
that those feelings are very important

1589
01:14:01,130 --> 01:13:57,890
Jim what do you think is the most

1590
01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:01,140
significant personal transformation that

1591
01:14:06,530 --> 01:14:03,330
you've had through your in

1592
01:14:10,850 --> 01:14:06,540
counter with the old chain my most

1593
01:14:13,490 --> 01:14:10,860
personal would be I'm a great skeptic

1594
01:14:16,340 --> 01:14:13,500
Alex oh when these people first came

1595
01:14:18,620 --> 01:14:16,350
here ever said oh yeah yeah okay prove

1596
01:14:20,990 --> 01:14:18,630
it to me come to my bookstore and share

1597
01:14:22,910 --> 01:14:21,000
the ideas but I'm not really buying it

1598
01:14:25,550 --> 01:14:22,920
no I'm not buying into this it's like

1599
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:25,560
okay you prove it if you prove it to me

1600
01:14:31,850 --> 01:14:27,810
I you know I'm going to sit back there

1601
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:31,860
and be an ignorant stupid person as I

1602
01:14:36,740 --> 01:14:34,410
said noticing how these people are in

1603
01:14:40,700 --> 01:14:36,750
the world and noticing how the world

1604
01:14:43,790 --> 01:14:40,710
responds to them especially with nature

1605
01:14:45,860 --> 01:14:43,800
encounters that I had with them it's

1606
01:14:48,950 --> 01:14:45,870
pretty magical they're they're just

1607
01:14:51,350 --> 01:14:48,960
they're just amazing magical people all

1608
01:14:54,380 --> 01:14:51,360
sorts of every time I was with them

1609
01:14:56,840 --> 01:14:54,390
there would be some sort of anomalous

1610
01:14:59,930 --> 01:14:56,850
event that would go on inside my home or

1611
01:15:01,820 --> 01:14:59,940
something would happen or we would you

1612
01:15:04,580 --> 01:15:01,830
know we would go somewhere and I would

1613
01:15:06,970 --> 01:15:04,590
you know watch these people walk into a

1614
01:15:11,240 --> 01:15:06,980
room and blow out all the lights you

1615
01:15:15,020 --> 01:15:11,250
know in in the studio or this would

1616
01:15:18,470 --> 01:15:15,030
happen and it would like okay like right

1617
01:15:21,710 --> 01:15:18,480
on cue things would happen so it was

1618
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:21,720
just amazing amazing to watch them they

1619
01:15:24,650 --> 01:15:23,970
they are truly you know they are truly

1620
01:15:27,620 --> 01:15:24,660
Yoda

1621
01:15:31,130 --> 01:15:27,630
they are truly dr. Doolittle when it

1622
01:15:34,100 --> 01:15:31,140
comes to being able to just seamlessly

1623
01:15:36,710 --> 01:15:34,110
interact with nature and watch nature

1624
01:15:39,230 --> 01:15:36,720
respond to them and when I would see

1625
01:15:41,270 --> 01:15:39,240
that I would I would think I don't know

1626
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:41,280
what that is but I want to learn that I

1627
01:15:48,020 --> 01:15:44,370
want to hang around about around these

1628
01:15:49,850 --> 01:15:48,030
people and and really try to get how how

1629
01:15:54,460 --> 01:15:49,860
is this being done what are they doing

1630
01:15:57,260 --> 01:15:54,470
how are they being that is causing these

1631
01:16:00,950 --> 01:15:57,270
responses to them has it led to you

1632
01:16:02,810 --> 01:16:00,960
having any direct connection with the

1633
01:16:06,470 --> 01:16:02,820
spirit world that you weren't able to

1634
01:16:09,710 --> 01:16:06,480
have before it's deepened my connection

1635
01:16:11,510 --> 01:16:09,720
and my dreams because that there's no

1636
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:11,520
difference between the spirit world and

1637
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:13,770
your dream world that's one thing to be

1638
01:16:16,969 --> 01:16:15,930
aware that the spirit world is the dream

1639
01:16:19,250 --> 01:16:16,979
world

1640
01:16:20,810 --> 01:16:19,260
and we all go there every night you

1641
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:20,820
don't have to go spend a lot of money

1642
01:16:26,120 --> 01:16:24,690
and and and buy classes to learn how to

1643
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:26,130
be there you're there every night it's

1644
01:16:31,129 --> 01:16:29,610
natural what about folks who have and

1645
01:16:34,489 --> 01:16:31,139
I've talked to several of them on this

1646
01:16:37,370 --> 01:16:34,499
show who have explored the astral realm

1647
01:16:40,279 --> 01:16:37,380
and would maybe pick that apart a little

1648
01:16:43,640 --> 01:16:40,289
bit and say they're very similar but

1649
01:16:47,180 --> 01:16:43,650
there is a astral world where your body

1650
01:16:50,810 --> 01:16:47,190
is is more removed from that dream state

1651
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:50,820
would that be inconsistent with what

1652
01:16:54,890 --> 01:16:52,530
either you've experienced or with what

1653
01:16:55,850 --> 01:16:54,900
the Ulchi are telling us no because

1654
01:16:57,379 --> 01:16:55,860
they're always shape-shift

1655
01:16:59,149 --> 01:16:57,389
so shape-shifting out of the dreamworld

1656
01:17:01,430 --> 01:16:59,159
into the astral world where you're going

1657
01:17:03,979 --> 01:17:01,440
and visiting other people well in the I

1658
01:17:06,890 --> 01:17:03,989
mean they can they can be in their

1659
01:17:09,259 --> 01:17:06,900
bodily form in these dream worlds or

1660
01:17:11,989 --> 01:17:09,269
astral worlds or whatever or they can be

1661
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:11,999
in another form or they can be little

1662
01:17:18,199 --> 01:17:14,010
dots of life is whatever they choose to

1663
01:17:21,969 --> 01:17:18,209
be what has been the process for you in

1664
01:17:24,799 --> 01:17:21,979
terms of learning to deepen your dreams

1665
01:17:27,379 --> 01:17:24,809
learning to deepen your ability to

1666
01:17:29,390 --> 01:17:27,389
access that lucid dreaming thing is

1667
01:17:31,149 --> 01:17:29,400
there anything you can pass along to

1668
01:17:33,859 --> 01:17:31,159
other people in terms of what that

1669
01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:33,869
process has been like for you just pay

1670
01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:37,650
attention it's not it's not a technique

1671
01:17:42,049 --> 01:17:40,530
just you know it's just saying okay when

1672
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:42,059
I go to beds now I'm gonna remember my

1673
01:17:47,930 --> 01:17:44,610
dreams or I'm going to do this or it

1674
01:17:50,239 --> 01:17:47,940
just keeping it keeping it circulating

1675
01:17:52,609 --> 01:17:50,249
in your conscious that at night when you

1676
01:17:55,310 --> 01:17:52,619
go to sleep you go there we all go there

1677
01:17:59,120 --> 01:17:55,320
we all go through the state it's natural

1678
01:18:03,979 --> 01:17:59,130
and that at some point you know if you

1679
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:03,989
wake up in the dream then you can begin

1680
01:18:10,850 --> 01:18:07,050
to explore a little bit more in this

1681
01:18:12,979 --> 01:18:10,860
world but no I'm I'm always working you

1682
01:18:15,410 --> 01:18:12,989
know I'm always working I have lots of

1683
01:18:17,359 --> 01:18:15,420
students that I've been seeing for years

1684
01:18:19,759 --> 01:18:17,369
and they're much better at this than I

1685
01:18:22,969 --> 01:18:19,769
am talk a little bit about how you help

1686
01:18:26,629 --> 01:18:22,979
people in various ways through your

1687
01:18:29,530 --> 01:18:26,639
practice well I I have I have students

1688
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:29,540
and I teach classes on this is

1689
01:18:34,480 --> 01:18:31,970
a specific form of classical shamanism

1690
01:18:38,140 --> 01:18:34,490
and I just imparted them what the old

1691
01:18:39,820 --> 01:18:38,150
tree say I try to remind them that it's

1692
01:18:43,740 --> 01:18:39,830
important not to get into the

1693
01:18:46,690 --> 01:18:43,750
intellectual realm once an experience is

1694
01:18:49,480 --> 01:18:46,700
if once you have an experience just sit

1695
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:49,490
there and and feel what that's all about

1696
01:18:54,310 --> 01:18:52,010
that will be much more informative than

1697
01:18:56,740 --> 01:18:54,320
getting into trying to make meaning out

1698
01:18:58,420 --> 01:18:56,750
of it I don't teach people but I just

1699
01:19:01,000 --> 01:18:58,430
try to remind people that they naturally

1700
01:19:02,770 --> 01:19:01,010
have these skills and that people need

1701
01:19:04,330 --> 01:19:02,780
to trust themselves and that's what it

1702
01:19:06,820 --> 01:19:04,340
all comes down to people don't trust

1703
01:19:09,070 --> 01:19:06,830
themselves well definitely in the

1704
01:19:11,110 --> 01:19:09,080
shownotes hook people up with again your

1705
01:19:12,760 --> 01:19:11,120
website which is excellent just so

1706
01:19:15,010 --> 01:19:12,770
beautifully done I don't know well thank

1707
01:19:16,510 --> 01:19:15,020
you if you did that or if you had some

1708
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:16,520
other folks do it but it's it's really

1709
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:18,530
pretty remarkable I wasn't really

1710
01:19:23,290 --> 01:19:21,050
impressed so what we definitely want to

1711
01:19:27,790 --> 01:19:23,300
connect people with that do you think

1712
01:19:31,360 --> 01:19:27,800
Jam that there was a reason for the

1713
01:19:34,450 --> 01:19:31,370
Ulchi to connect with you here in the

1714
01:19:39,130 --> 01:19:34,460
West in Washington who knows maybe yes

1715
01:19:45,280 --> 01:19:39,140
maybe no who's to say did you ever ask

1716
01:19:47,350 --> 01:19:45,290
I've asked them a few times and well why

1717
01:19:49,750 --> 01:19:47,360
are you why are you here oh well because

1718
01:19:52,900 --> 01:19:49,760
our spirit says you know our spirits

1719
01:19:55,750 --> 01:19:52,910
talk to your spirits and so you took up

1720
01:19:57,880 --> 01:19:55,760
the banner and you and it was like okay

1721
01:20:00,880 --> 01:19:57,890
that's great okay wonderful I mean who

1722
01:20:02,710 --> 01:20:00,890
knows you know and and Alex I was going

1723
01:20:05,860 --> 01:20:02,720
to say those aren't the questions I

1724
01:20:08,410 --> 01:20:05,870
asked myself I'm still asking okay how

1725
01:20:13,150 --> 01:20:08,420
is it done like you I'm going is there a

1726
01:20:16,960 --> 01:20:13,160
technique this it's like how are how are

1727
01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:16,970
these people able to be the way they are

1728
01:20:22,330 --> 01:20:19,610
in the world and you're in a house with

1729
01:20:24,340 --> 01:20:22,340
them and things start flying around cups

1730
01:20:26,950 --> 01:20:24,350
and saucers that will fly around in the

1731
01:20:29,440 --> 01:20:26,960
house or lights get exploded you're out

1732
01:20:30,670 --> 01:20:29,450
with it with them in nature and things

1733
01:20:33,430 --> 01:20:30,680
start to happen

1734
01:20:36,070 --> 01:20:33,440
you know they animals wild animals come

1735
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:36,080
up to you or you're downstairs in a

1736
01:20:39,770 --> 01:20:38,810
sealed room and they're talking about

1737
01:20:41,630 --> 01:20:39,780
the north

1738
01:20:43,310 --> 01:20:41,640
and everything is sealed and locked and

1739
01:20:46,970 --> 01:20:43,320
suddenly there's a wind in the middle of

1740
01:20:49,070 --> 01:20:46,980
the room so how do I I'm still in the

1741
01:20:52,370 --> 01:20:49,080
how is that good and I'm and I know that

1742
01:20:53,900 --> 01:20:52,380
I'm probably probably too Western in my

1743
01:20:56,180 --> 01:20:53,910
approach because I don't know if I'll

1744
01:20:59,500 --> 01:20:56,190
ever know the how I think it's about

1745
01:21:03,770 --> 01:20:59,510
being in a certain state of

1746
01:21:06,230 --> 01:21:03,780
consciousness and I I don't know it'll

1747
01:21:09,890 --> 01:21:06,240
just you know I'll always be asking that

1748
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:09,900
question till I'm till I'm gone and but

1749
01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:11,010
that's what you know that's what

1750
01:21:14,810 --> 01:21:12,570
encourages me to wake up every morning

1751
01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:14,820
and keep you know to keep on the

1752
01:21:19,670 --> 01:21:17,010
adventure and to keep exploring and to

1753
01:21:23,150 --> 01:21:19,680
see what I come up with I do have to say

1754
01:21:26,240 --> 01:21:23,160
I think that's wonderful I think you're

1755
01:21:28,910 --> 01:21:26,250
one of these transitional people and I

1756
01:21:30,950 --> 01:21:28,920
don't know if I'm answering my own

1757
01:21:34,730 --> 01:21:30,960
question a minute from a minute ago but

1758
01:21:38,150 --> 01:21:34,740
I don't think a lot of people can really

1759
01:21:41,240 --> 01:21:38,160
feel comfortable with one foot in both

1760
01:21:45,050 --> 01:21:41,250
these worlds as you do because obviously

1761
01:21:48,710 --> 01:21:45,060
you are deeply interested in the deeper

1762
01:21:50,710 --> 01:21:48,720
spiritual aspects of this but at the

1763
01:21:54,050 --> 01:21:50,720
same time you're bringing that

1764
01:21:57,290 --> 01:21:54,060
scientific break it apart deconstruct it

1765
01:21:59,840 --> 01:21:57,300
where's your iPhone kind of vibe kind of

1766
01:22:01,640 --> 01:21:59,850
thing and then on the third leg you're

1767
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:01,650
saying of course none of that matters or

1768
01:22:07,970 --> 01:22:05,010
means anything anyway but I mean I'm

1769
01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:07,980
trying to really understand them and

1770
01:22:12,770 --> 01:22:10,650
their planet and bring it back and

1771
01:22:14,480 --> 01:22:12,780
translate it it's like I'm going to

1772
01:22:16,940 --> 01:22:14,490
plant an oak tree and I've come back and

1773
01:22:20,240 --> 01:22:16,950
planted old she is not like trust me

1774
01:22:21,740 --> 01:22:20,250
it's not like the West at all so I'm

1775
01:22:23,870 --> 01:22:21,750
trying to come back to our planet and

1776
01:22:27,920 --> 01:22:23,880
try to explain how these aliens from

1777
01:22:31,490 --> 01:22:27,930
Planet Ulchi how they exist how they

1778
01:22:35,260 --> 01:22:31,500
their view of logic their view of how

1779
01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:35,270
things happen and I'm trying to use my

1780
01:22:39,410 --> 01:22:38,010
having grown up in a Western culture to

1781
01:22:41,570 --> 01:22:39,420
look at the science and look at the

1782
01:22:43,880 --> 01:22:41,580
medical data and say well you know the

1783
01:22:45,530 --> 01:22:43,890
closest I can get to and come up with

1784
01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:45,540
examples if I give a bunch of

1785
01:22:49,430 --> 01:22:47,970
philosophical abstraction it's not going

1786
01:22:52,500 --> 01:22:49,440
to make any sense it's best to give an

1787
01:22:55,439 --> 01:22:52,510
example so it's me talking about

1788
01:22:56,790 --> 01:22:55,449
REM sleep behavior disorder and this and

1789
01:22:59,339 --> 01:22:56,800
this and this and that that's the

1790
01:23:00,270 --> 01:22:59,349
closest I can get to explaining the

1791
01:23:03,209 --> 01:23:00,280
phenomenon

1792
01:23:05,850 --> 01:23:03,219
nobody has said that anybody in the West

1793
01:23:07,890 --> 01:23:05,860
has ever said that's what it is I'm I'm

1794
01:23:09,870 --> 01:23:07,900
the first person saying everything that

1795
01:23:12,359 --> 01:23:09,880
I know this is this is what it

1796
01:23:14,459 --> 01:23:12,369
correlates to so when if you want to go

1797
01:23:16,050 --> 01:23:14,469
have a shamanic journey I don't know

1798
01:23:18,270 --> 01:23:16,060
they talk about the shamanic state of

1799
01:23:21,120 --> 01:23:18,280
consciousness I think what the hell is

1800
01:23:22,560 --> 01:23:21,130
that that's so vague and I mean it's

1801
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:22,570
like what what do you mean there's no

1802
01:23:26,939 --> 01:23:24,489
such thing they're just consciousness

1803
01:23:29,430 --> 01:23:26,949
before we run out of time here and I

1804
01:23:32,250 --> 01:23:29,440
appreciate all this because it's been

1805
01:23:34,740 --> 01:23:32,260
such a great conversation I love how

1806
01:23:36,780 --> 01:23:34,750
you're so willing to go all these

1807
01:23:39,629 --> 01:23:36,790
different places one of the things you

1808
01:23:43,550 --> 01:23:39,639
tease me with in an awesome way because

1809
01:23:45,750 --> 01:23:43,560
you know my kinda skeptical vibe is this

1810
01:23:50,270 --> 01:23:45,760
understanding that you've come to have

1811
01:23:56,910 --> 01:23:50,280
about how shamanism slash neo shamanism

1812
01:23:58,830 --> 01:23:56,920
was co-opted in not in a secret shadow

1813
01:24:02,250 --> 01:23:58,840
government kind of way but in a much

1814
01:24:06,060 --> 01:24:02,260
more understandable kind of huckster

1815
01:24:08,760 --> 01:24:06,070
let's make a buck kind of way do you

1816
01:24:12,510 --> 01:24:08,770
want to talk about any of that in about

1817
01:24:16,050 --> 01:24:12,520
some of your feelings about what's going

1818
01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:16,060
on with shamanism as it's portrayed in

1819
01:24:20,010 --> 01:24:17,650
the West often and how it's been

1820
01:24:22,439 --> 01:24:20,020
commercialized or it may be whether some

1821
01:24:25,950 --> 01:24:22,449
of that maybe is okay and maybe some of

1822
01:24:28,109 --> 01:24:25,960
it is not okay right well I yeah I try

1823
01:24:31,979 --> 01:24:28,119
to you know I would go from being very

1824
01:24:34,169 --> 01:24:31,989
sad to very angry and come to a state of

1825
01:24:36,479 --> 01:24:34,179
just like okay it is what it is there

1826
01:24:39,270 --> 01:24:36,489
you have core shamanism that was that

1827
01:24:40,740 --> 01:24:39,280
was created by Michael Horner and you

1828
01:24:45,240 --> 01:24:40,750
have Carlos Castaneda

1829
01:24:48,359 --> 01:24:45,250
and then you have neo shamanism and all

1830
01:24:51,180 --> 01:24:48,369
these Western interpretations of the art

1831
01:24:55,379 --> 01:24:51,190
and shamanism is not a technique it's an

1832
01:24:58,109 --> 01:24:55,389
art and their ideas about shamanic

1833
01:24:59,640 --> 01:24:58,119
states of consciousness or this this and

1834
01:25:01,200 --> 01:24:59,650
this I don't know where they're coming

1835
01:25:03,419 --> 01:25:01,210
from I don't understand what they're

1836
01:25:04,740 --> 01:25:03,429
talking about because well I think you

1837
01:25:05,580 --> 01:25:04,750
go one step further and you say you

1838
01:25:09,450 --> 01:25:05,590
quest

1839
01:25:11,430 --> 01:25:09,460
whether they've legitimately come up

1840
01:25:13,979 --> 01:25:11,440
with that information or whether they've

1841
01:25:17,189 --> 01:25:13,989
just kind of plagiarized it and borrowed

1842
01:25:19,290 --> 01:25:17,199
it in order to make a buck well I I you

1843
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:19,300
know I don't know if I would go so far

1844
01:25:25,470 --> 01:25:22,090
maybe to say but I think that I think

1845
01:25:28,560 --> 01:25:25,480
that all these people that are that have

1846
01:25:31,979 --> 01:25:28,570
created it I think from on the most part

1847
01:25:34,260 --> 01:25:31,989
they're very sincere about their studies

1848
01:25:38,790 --> 01:25:34,270
but I you know but you're not going to

1849
01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:38,800
learn a tradition from either running

1850
01:25:42,780 --> 01:25:40,570
around the world and taking bits and

1851
01:25:44,970 --> 01:25:42,790
pieces of unrelated cultures and

1852
01:25:48,330 --> 01:25:44,980
throwing it together and creating a

1853
01:25:50,430 --> 01:25:48,340
technique or coming up with a structure

1854
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:50,440
that you've read from books I mean I

1855
01:25:54,660 --> 01:25:52,090
can't believe that people are even still

1856
01:25:58,020 --> 01:25:54,670
reading Ely odd I mean everybody should

1857
01:26:00,810 --> 01:25:58,030
have an Ely odd book burning weekend

1858
01:26:04,500 --> 01:26:00,820
people use that as a that's a prime

1859
01:26:06,660 --> 01:26:04,510
source and and that's crazy everything

1860
01:26:08,790 --> 01:26:06,670
is being interpreted from either neo

1861
01:26:12,410 --> 01:26:08,800
shamanism or course shamanism

1862
01:26:15,919 --> 01:26:12,420
from a very Western mechanistic linear

1863
01:26:18,180 --> 01:26:15,929
reductionistic point of view and I

1864
01:26:20,729 --> 01:26:18,190
completely disagree with that

1865
01:26:23,100 --> 01:26:20,739
well let me approach it from another

1866
01:26:27,149 --> 01:26:23,110
direction a shamanism

1867
01:26:30,570 --> 01:26:27,159
in our culture right now probably most

1868
01:26:34,729 --> 01:26:30,580
prominent in the ayahuasca ceremonies in

1869
01:26:38,820 --> 01:26:34,739
Peru the either you know entheogen

1870
01:26:41,220 --> 01:26:38,830
travel community you know get your right

1871
01:26:43,229 --> 01:26:41,230
get your shaman go out in the woods do a

1872
01:26:46,770 --> 01:26:43,239
little ceremony what do you think about

1873
01:26:49,530 --> 01:26:46,780
that what the misuse of a plant plants

1874
01:26:53,129 --> 01:26:49,540
ferrets versus people that really is it

1875
01:26:55,729 --> 01:26:53,139
is it a misuse oh maybe not yeah I don't

1876
01:26:59,280 --> 01:26:55,739
maybe it is maybe it is I mean is that

1877
01:27:02,339 --> 01:26:59,290
genuine shamanism how do you find a real

1878
01:27:05,100 --> 01:27:02,349
shaman how do you know if you should

1879
01:27:08,250 --> 01:27:05,110
enter into the ritual and have that

1880
01:27:11,879 --> 01:27:08,260
experience I mean it can one say that at

1881
01:27:14,570 --> 01:27:11,889
least we're now starting to embrace that

1882
01:27:17,640 --> 01:27:14,580
culture even if it is in this clumsy

1883
01:27:19,750 --> 01:27:17,650
problematic way we're at least engaging

1884
01:27:21,970 --> 01:27:19,760
with a different

1885
01:27:24,879 --> 01:27:21,980
paradigm that says there is this other

1886
01:27:26,680 --> 01:27:24,889
world that we can connect with and are

1887
01:27:28,390 --> 01:27:26,690
connected with whether we want to be or

1888
01:27:30,370 --> 01:27:28,400
not I mean right there are some

1889
01:27:33,310 --> 01:27:30,380
positives right so there's also some

1890
01:27:36,450 --> 01:27:33,320
negatives well you know the old tree

1891
01:27:39,790 --> 01:27:36,460
didn't have mushrooms and other

1892
01:27:41,649 --> 01:27:39,800
hallucinatory plant teachers in their

1893
01:27:45,580 --> 01:27:41,659
area although the trip to people that

1894
01:27:48,790 --> 01:27:45,590
live to the north do but all sorts of

1895
01:27:52,450 --> 01:27:48,800
plants I don't they don't have a problem

1896
01:27:54,189 --> 01:27:52,460
with those the the idea that there are

1897
01:27:56,169 --> 01:27:54,199
plant teachers I mean the old cheese ate

1898
01:28:01,600 --> 01:27:56,179
marijuana every morning for breakfast

1899
01:28:04,450 --> 01:28:01,610
back in I mean that that was that's a

1900
01:28:08,410 --> 01:28:04,460
that's a psychedelic yeah they you know

1901
01:28:09,939 --> 01:28:08,420
they collected a hemp seed marijuana

1902
01:28:13,899 --> 01:28:09,949
seed all the time and I've actually

1903
01:28:17,370 --> 01:28:13,909
tried to discover exactly which strain

1904
01:28:20,470 --> 01:28:17,380
of marijuana grows up there and it's I

1905
01:28:23,709 --> 01:28:20,480
the informations not real clear but it

1906
01:28:25,569 --> 01:28:23,719
is some sort of indica strain but they

1907
01:28:29,740 --> 01:28:25,579
ate that they that every day what about

1908
01:28:32,859 --> 01:28:29,750
back to shamanism as its reimagine in

1909
01:28:35,439 --> 01:28:32,869
our culture the good the bad the ugly my

1910
01:28:38,410 --> 01:28:35,449
my concern with coarse shamanism and neo

1911
01:28:40,959 --> 01:28:38,420
shamanism and the Ulchi had exposure to

1912
01:28:43,390 --> 01:28:40,969
this when the over the years that they

1913
01:28:46,259 --> 01:28:43,400
were here is a lot of what these people

1914
01:28:49,890 --> 01:28:46,269
are doing that it's very dangerous so

1915
01:28:53,859 --> 01:28:49,900
that's the thing that's the aspect of

1916
01:28:56,830 --> 01:28:53,869
made-up shamanism that I that I the

1917
01:28:58,779 --> 01:28:56,840
concerns may dangerous in what way this

1918
01:29:00,040 --> 01:28:58,789
is like we're two hours into this and

1919
01:29:02,379 --> 01:29:00,050
now we've hit on a really important

1920
01:29:04,419 --> 01:29:02,389
point well for example in coarse

1921
01:29:06,310 --> 01:29:04,429
shamanism they have their their

1922
01:29:08,850 --> 01:29:06,320
techniques and then they have this

1923
01:29:13,109 --> 01:29:08,860
drumming at two hundred and forty seven

1924
01:29:17,259 --> 01:29:13,119
beats per minute which is according to

1925
01:29:19,540 --> 01:29:17,269
these people put you in as shamanic

1926
01:29:22,060 --> 01:29:19,550
state of consciousness um whatever and

1927
01:29:25,750 --> 01:29:22,070
at try and you travel there and then at

1928
01:29:29,520 --> 01:29:25,760
the end they have what they call a

1929
01:29:31,899 --> 01:29:29,530
callback where it's an abrupt ending to

1930
01:29:32,939 --> 01:29:31,909
whatever that translate is and when

1931
01:29:36,090 --> 01:29:32,949
people are called

1932
01:29:38,340 --> 01:29:36,100
the old cheese saw that and experienced

1933
01:29:40,800 --> 01:29:38,350
that when they were teaching for the

1934
01:29:43,950 --> 01:29:40,810
shamanic for the foundation for shamanic

1935
01:29:48,020 --> 01:29:43,960
studies one year they saw that happening

1936
01:29:51,630 --> 01:29:48,030
and they were shocked they said that

1937
01:29:54,479 --> 01:29:51,640
that could cause a trauma to the soul

1938
01:29:56,669 --> 01:29:54,489
they thought it was very barbaric and

1939
01:29:59,250 --> 01:29:56,679
those are the terms I will use because I

1940
01:30:01,919 --> 01:29:59,260
have to quote from them and after they

1941
01:30:04,470 --> 01:30:01,929
had that experience they wanted to get

1942
01:30:06,930 --> 01:30:04,480
up and leave and then I had to convince

1943
01:30:09,090 --> 01:30:06,940
them that we had signed a legal contract

1944
01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:09,100
and that we couldn't get up and leave

1945
01:30:15,000 --> 01:30:11,650
for a week and that I it would all come

1946
01:30:17,580 --> 01:30:15,010
back on me and so I'm sorry that you've

1947
01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:17,590
had this experience I'm so sorry and

1948
01:30:22,410 --> 01:30:19,810
they went to address that and later on

1949
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:22,420
it was a week-long event they went to

1950
01:30:28,950 --> 01:30:24,850
address that with the people that they

1951
01:30:31,290 --> 01:30:28,960
saw see so that again like we're

1952
01:30:34,260 --> 01:30:31,300
connected in that way Jan you and I in

1953
01:30:36,150 --> 01:30:34,270
terms of understanding the mechanics of

1954
01:30:38,280 --> 01:30:36,160
it because now we're getting into a very

1955
01:30:40,110 --> 01:30:38,290
much of a value judgment hey there's a

1956
01:30:42,570 --> 01:30:40,120
right way to do it there's a wrong way

1957
01:30:44,580 --> 01:30:42,580
to do it or if you like there's a more

1958
01:30:46,890 --> 01:30:44,590
effective way to do it a more elegant

1959
01:30:49,500 --> 01:30:46,900
way to do it and a less elegant way to

1960
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:49,510
do it well what is that saying and then

1961
01:30:52,890 --> 01:30:51,010
let me tie that back to something you

1962
01:30:54,990 --> 01:30:52,900
were saying earlier about the hierarchy

1963
01:30:57,600 --> 01:30:55,000
of consciousness another one of my kind

1964
01:30:59,250 --> 01:30:57,610
of key things well there's these souls

1965
01:31:01,709 --> 01:30:59,260
who are on this level but then there's

1966
01:31:04,740 --> 01:31:01,719
souls who were on another level I mean

1967
01:31:08,550 --> 01:31:04,750
these are all little hints to mapping

1968
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:08,560
out this territory this topology in a

1969
01:31:12,900 --> 01:31:11,050
way that that then again contradicts

1970
01:31:16,050 --> 01:31:12,910
with I mean if none of it matters then

1971
01:31:18,390 --> 01:31:16,060
who cares if you leave your enter in the

1972
01:31:20,760 --> 01:31:18,400
astral body this way and enter back into

1973
01:31:22,140 --> 01:31:20,770
it that way who cares whatever you want

1974
01:31:23,820 --> 01:31:22,150
to do but then they say well hey I

1975
01:31:26,180 --> 01:31:23,830
really wouldn't recommend doing it that

1976
01:31:28,860 --> 01:31:26,190
way or what do they say about evil

1977
01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:28,870
spirits or malevolent spirits I mean

1978
01:31:33,150 --> 01:31:31,210
these are all different areas we could

1979
01:31:33,479 --> 01:31:33,160
get into but it it kind of contradicts

1980
01:31:35,850 --> 01:31:33,489
that

1981
01:31:37,979 --> 01:31:35,860
Taoism it's all going to be okay it

1982
01:31:41,580 --> 01:31:37,989
doesn't matter anyway kind of well no

1983
01:31:44,950 --> 01:31:41,590
Taoism is not a passive philosophy at

1984
01:31:47,530 --> 01:31:44,960
all or paddling way of life it's in yeah

1985
01:31:49,690 --> 01:31:47,540
you can get into that state of saying

1986
01:31:51,970 --> 01:31:49,700
well it doesn't it doesn't really matter

1987
01:31:52,930 --> 01:31:51,980
in the bigger scheme of things and maybe

1988
01:31:55,270 --> 01:31:52,940
that's true

1989
01:31:58,930 --> 01:31:55,280
maybe that's absolutely true Alex but at

1990
01:32:01,060 --> 01:31:58,940
the same time you don't want to say oh

1991
01:32:03,760 --> 01:32:01,070
I'm going to show you how to shoot a gun

1992
01:32:07,060 --> 01:32:03,770
and then you load the gun and then you

1993
01:32:09,100 --> 01:32:07,070
give it a very ignorant person that

1994
01:32:11,680 --> 01:32:09,110
doesn't know anything and you have and

1995
01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:11,690
you say okay here put put them put the

1996
01:32:16,450 --> 01:32:13,730
the nose of the gun towards you and pull

1997
01:32:19,810 --> 01:32:16,460
the trigger there is a responsibility on

1998
01:32:21,910 --> 01:32:19,820
the part of any teacher I mean I I can

1999
01:32:24,310 --> 01:32:21,920
get into that I mean I can get into you

2000
01:32:26,250 --> 01:32:24,320
know is it the it's a somebody that's

2001
01:32:28,630 --> 01:32:26,260
teaching something if they don't know

2002
01:32:31,390 --> 01:32:28,640
specifically what they're doing they

2003
01:32:33,940 --> 01:32:31,400
could cause more harm than good

2004
01:32:36,120 --> 01:32:33,950
Jan again you've written this awesome

2005
01:32:39,370 --> 01:32:36,130
book spirits from the edge of the world

2006
01:32:43,240 --> 01:32:39,380
where do you go from here in terms of

2007
01:32:45,130 --> 01:32:43,250
your work and your investigation and

2008
01:32:47,500 --> 01:32:45,140
ongoing relationship with the ultra

2009
01:32:49,900 --> 01:32:47,510
people well since all of the shamans

2010
01:32:56,100 --> 01:32:49,910
have gone on to where were they've gone

2011
01:33:02,229 --> 01:32:56,110
on to I've got 25 years of all of the

2012
01:33:07,510 --> 01:33:02,239
the healing work that my main teacher

2013
01:33:10,540 --> 01:33:07,520
grandmother Nadia Devon did with people

2014
01:33:13,470 --> 01:33:10,550
here in the West so I've got three four

2015
01:33:19,060 --> 01:33:13,480
four hundred and fifty five hundred

2016
01:33:20,709 --> 01:33:19,070
hours of information all of her healing

2017
01:33:22,720 --> 01:33:20,719
work with all of our different clients

2018
01:33:24,640 --> 01:33:22,730
and what I'm going to do right now it

2019
01:33:26,979 --> 01:33:24,650
what I'm doing with that is translating

2020
01:33:30,900 --> 01:33:26,989
it and I'm gonna put together some sort

2021
01:33:34,750 --> 01:33:30,910
of quantitative study of the actual

2022
01:33:36,280 --> 01:33:34,760
healing process and what the core lips

2023
01:33:38,950 --> 01:33:36,290
were I haven't come up with all the

2024
01:33:42,280 --> 01:33:38,960
criteria for that yet but I'm gonna

2025
01:33:44,550 --> 01:33:42,290
translate all of that and so that's

2026
01:33:47,680 --> 01:33:44,560
that's my next big research project

2027
01:33:49,750 --> 01:33:47,690
awesome well it's been great like I said

2028
01:33:51,490 --> 01:33:49,760
I really appreciate your willingness to

2029
01:33:53,830 --> 01:33:51,500
kind of go all these different

2030
01:33:57,220 --> 01:33:53,840
directions right you know and I

2031
01:33:58,510 --> 01:33:57,230
apologize it's times we were you were

2032
01:34:01,690 --> 01:33:58,520
here and I was here and

2033
01:34:03,820 --> 01:34:01,700
oh no no no please I again I that most

2034
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:03,830
people don't wind up feeling kind of

2035
01:34:07,690 --> 01:34:05,810
uncomfortable with that and you were

2036
01:34:11,230 --> 01:34:07,700
there with me every step of the way and

2037
01:34:13,720 --> 01:34:11,240
I think we got to a lot of the the stuff

2038
01:34:16,150 --> 01:34:13,730
that really will compel people to want

2039
01:34:17,610 --> 01:34:16,160
to go out and get this book and check

2040
01:34:23,050 --> 01:34:17,620
out your website because they should

2041
01:34:24,670 --> 01:34:23,060
this deep dive is so important in terms

2042
01:34:28,330 --> 01:34:24,680
of I'm talking to someone who really

2043
01:34:32,260 --> 01:34:28,340
knows [\h__\h] that other people don't know

2044
01:34:34,270 --> 01:34:32,270
and I that I think is is always such a

2045
01:34:36,550 --> 01:34:34,280
big plus for me because like you said

2046
01:34:40,930 --> 01:34:36,560
people to just have compiled a bunch of

2047
01:34:44,020 --> 01:34:40,940
stuff isn't as rich as somebody who says

2048
01:34:45,760 --> 01:34:44,030
hey I've really I've really dug into it

2049
01:34:48,070 --> 01:34:45,770
you know that amount of time you spend

2050
01:34:51,910 --> 01:34:48,080
on it is just incredible well I I think

2051
01:34:55,630 --> 01:34:51,920
very much like you Alex we're we're

2052
01:34:58,570 --> 01:34:55,640
seeking the truth as much as we can get

2053
01:35:01,540 --> 01:34:58,580
to it and that the only way and you as

2054
01:35:04,480 --> 01:35:01,550
well to really do you can't go anywhere

2055
01:35:07,060 --> 01:35:04,490
and really come up with enough with with

2056
01:35:09,910 --> 01:35:07,070
any real information without the

2057
01:35:13,810 --> 01:35:09,920
in-depth research most people have

2058
01:35:17,650 --> 01:35:13,820
information a mile long and one a one

2059
01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:17,660
inch deep right and so you know you've

2060
01:35:21,640 --> 01:35:19,850
got to go deep you've got to go deep to

2061
01:35:24,220 --> 01:35:21,650
get all the possible variables but

2062
01:35:25,960 --> 01:35:24,230
variables but then again Alex I don't

2063
01:35:27,400 --> 01:35:25,970
know when you get all that can you I

2064
01:35:29,530 --> 01:35:27,410
don't know if you could ever take all

2065
01:35:31,350 --> 01:35:29,540
the possible variables into

2066
01:35:34,120 --> 01:35:31,360
consideration when you go to make a

2067
01:35:35,560 --> 01:35:34,130
hypothesis or theory about of course not

2068
01:35:38,230 --> 01:35:35,570
of course not it's just a different kind

2069
01:35:43,090 --> 01:35:38,240
of conversation and that's what you've

2070
01:35:45,340 --> 01:35:43,100
treated us to today Jan so again I thank

2071
01:35:48,550 --> 01:35:45,350
you so much for doing it our guest has

2072
01:35:51,700 --> 01:35:48,560
been Jan and Isis teen and the book one

2073
01:35:52,450 --> 01:35:51,710
more time is spirits from the edge of

2074
01:35:55,360 --> 01:35:52,460
the world

2075
01:35:58,570 --> 01:35:55,370
Jan thanks so much you're the best

2076
01:36:01,000 --> 01:35:58,580
I thank you so very much it it has made

2077
01:36:04,120 --> 01:36:01,010
my year to be on your broadcast so I

2078
01:36:04,900 --> 01:36:04,130
thank you so so very much you're way way

2079
01:36:10,210 --> 01:36:04,910
too kind

2080
01:36:10,770 --> 01:36:10,220
oh thanks again to Jan for joining me

2081
01:36:14,190 --> 01:36:10,780
today

2082
01:36:17,700 --> 01:36:14,200
skeptic oh the question I'd ask you is

2083
01:36:22,080 --> 01:36:17,710
the question I asked Jan where is your

2084
01:36:24,420 --> 01:36:22,090
[\h__\h] iPhone more broadly what is the

2085
01:36:28,140 --> 01:36:24,430
connection between extended

2086
01:36:35,790 --> 01:36:28,150
consciousness and technology in all

2087
01:36:39,930 --> 01:36:35,800
forms including ET and de OBE and any

2088
01:36:42,870 --> 01:36:39,940
other three-letter acronym you can come

2089
01:36:44,910 --> 01:36:42,880
up with this is a deep dive this is the

2090
01:36:48,180 --> 01:36:44,920
kind of stuff that still gets my

2091
01:36:51,690 --> 01:36:48,190
skeptical juices flowing and I hope it

2092
01:36:54,630 --> 01:36:51,700
does yours to join me in this dialogue

2093
01:36:57,660 --> 01:36:54,640
come visit me on sceptical calm engage

2094
01:37:00,000 --> 01:36:57,670
with the material and let me know how

2095
01:37:02,390 --> 01:37:00,010
you're doing how you're thinking and how

2096
01:37:04,740 --> 01:37:02,400
you're handling these tough questions

2097
01:37:06,870 --> 01:37:04,750
while you're there check out all the

2098
01:37:08,490 --> 01:37:06,880
previous episodes of skeptic Oh take

2099
01:37:11,850 --> 01:37:08,500
them all use them how you like they're

2100
01:37:13,710 --> 01:37:11,860
all available there for free and then of

2101
01:37:16,470 --> 01:37:13,720
course stay with me for future shows

2102
01:37:20,280 --> 01:37:16,480
many of them coming up but until then

2103
01:37:35,200 --> 01:37:20,290
take care and bye for now

2104
01:37:39,860 --> 01:37:37,970
so thanks for watching this video if it

2105
01:37:42,439 --> 01:37:39,870
wasn't really a video but just an audio

2106
01:37:44,030 --> 01:37:42,449
stored as a video well I apologize but

2107
01:37:45,950 --> 01:37:44,040
there's more videos out there as well

2108
01:37:47,780 --> 01:37:45,960
but please check out the skeptic Oh

2109
01:37:49,160 --> 01:37:47,790
website you can see it here we cover a

2110
01:37:51,979 --> 01:37:49,170
lot of different stuff you might be

2111
01:37:55,310 --> 01:37:51,989
interested in relating to controversial

2112
01:37:58,010 --> 01:37:55,320
science and spirituality a lot of shows

2113
01:38:00,860 --> 01:37:58,020
up there over 350 of them are so all

2114
01:38:03,170 --> 01:38:00,870
free all available for downloads so do